Stef, Co-host: 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of "You Can't Say Anything Anymore!" My name is Stef. My pronouns are she/her and I'm going to be your host for today's episode. So today we're going to be exploring rainbow families. So what are rainbow families? What is Rainbow parenting? And I'm not going to be exploring this topic alone as I've actually got a very exciting co host alongside me today. So I'd like to introduce Nicholas from Rainbow Dads.

Nicholas, Co-host: 0:24

Hello, my name is Nicholas McInerney, pronouns he/him. About five years ago, I made a podcast called Rainbow Dads. And Pritpal was one of our first rainbow dads, it was very successful, it was stories of gay and bisexual dads. And we've had two series now, won awards, been nominated for other awards, but we very much hope to expand the definition of rainbow dads to rainbow parenting, and to include other kinds of experiences. Which is why I'm absolutely delighted to be part of this podcast recording this evening. And I want to thank my guests, our guests, Amy, Elliot, Pritpal, and Kate, for allowing themselves to be interviewed about their experiences. So I thought we'd start by asking you about personal journeys, and a brief account of your journey to becoming a rainbow parent . And I thought we'd start with Kate, please, Kate.

Kate: 1:32

Thank you for inviting me today. I'm really, really excited. And I'll try not to let my my nerves get the better of me. And my little boy constantly comments on whenever I do any sort of publicity or filming or anything, how often I say "erm". So I will take a breath instead of saying "erm", because I can't stand the ridicule from him.

Nicholas, Co-host: 1:54

Your journey, give us a brief account of your journey as a rainbow parent.

Kate: 2:00

So in brief, which over you know, 10 years, it's not that brief is it? How much can I squeeze a decade in. So I'm 40 this year, my gosh, I'm 40 this year, and my son is 10 years old. And within my family, obviously I grew up in the 80s. So I hadn't ever heard of, I didn't know what a lesbian was, I didn't. And certainly when I, you know, really found myself and my sexuality, and I was being more comfortable in that. In my late teens, I never considered - as much as I wanted children - that I would ever be able to have a child. Now there's numerous reasons for that - one being the clear lack of sperm, that's always going to be a bit of a trouble, isn't it for lesbians, or female same-sex couples. And I had never even considered it being a possibility. So that was one reason. The other reason? There's no you know, there's no families that would be representative of mine on TV, and another reason why I... you have to see it, don't you to be able to, to want to be it and to know that you can do that. And we didn't have that when I was growing up, as well as also my family are...I'm gonna say homophobic. I think maybe, if I was to say to them that homophobic, they would be really offended by that. But between friends and the rest of the, you know, the country that's going to see this they are and that's something that I really need to accept and acknowledge because some of their attitudes towards me and me. Yeah, you know, it's not we all know, obviously on this call, it's not a lifestyle choice. So that was something else I was quite certain I would never be able to become a parent because in my family's eyes, queers shouldn't have kids, it's not fair on the child. And then mix that with a lot of self worth, and self doubt and all of the other things that we are so complexly entwined with to our detriment. I, somebody told me actually someone from work said,"Oh, I know this lesbian couple who've had a kid" and I was like, "Come again! Tell me more about that. How did that happen?" And then I started looking into it. And I the partner, the woman I was with at the time, we're no longer together, but we co-parent beautifully. We've got such a good relationship and she deserves all the love in the world. And I couldn't give it to her and I deserve the love that she couldn't give to me. We just weren't right for each other. But without her, regardless of her not being genetically related to to our son, I wouldn't have had him and we wouldn't have had him in that and I'm sure she feels very much the same about me. So I really am very appreciative and very lucky that we met and we decided to embark on this parenting journey. So look, I told you I could talk didn't I? And I already am so I do apologise. I conceived my son through an anonymous sperm donor at a clinic in London. That was the short answer I think you were probably after. Yes. So that's my parenting journey. Like I say he's 10 I've had to go through an incredible journey of self discovery and development and unpicking my childhood. And, and we, you know, we mentioned yesterday internalised homophobia from other influences in my life.

Nicholas, Co-host: 5:24

I think the internalised homophobia with regard to one's idea of oneself as a parent, I think is a very interesting subject that we could return to in a bit. I want to ask, Pritpal, I'm assuming that finding a sperm donor wasn't a problem for you.

Pritpal: 5:40

Yeah, so our journeys are very, very different. Kate. So I'm Pritpal, nice to meet you all. So essentially, from my point of view, similarly, to Kate, I grew up in the 80s, as well. I didn't know anybody who was from a minority, or anybody who looked like me that happened to be from the LGBT community. So it was not something that I would ever imagine me being part of that either. So it was just a really, really alien concept, really, I guess. So I did the usual thing, which you're expected to do as children, families, you go to study, you get good grades to go to university, get good grades, get a good job, and then you normally the instruction happens to the family to prospective partners. And so I followed by that course. And yeah, ended up getting married at 22, had 700 people at my wedding, most of whom I didn't know. And yeah, so that was only and then obviously, my wife and I got to know each other. We then had children five months later. And unfortunately, the marriage just didn't work out. When my youngest was two, we separated. And so I had two daughters. One was four, one was two, so we separated amicably. And it was after that separation really, that I was a single man again in sort of around 2010. The world was a very different place, I had developed and become a very different person. And I fell in love with a man and, and that was where my sort of rainbow journey started as a parent.

Nicholas, Co-host: 7:26

Brilliant, brilliant. Amy I'm assuming you didn't have 700 people at your wedding, but maybe you did. Well. What about your journey?

Amy: 7:36

Well, I've been married twice, but only about 100 people. Well, I grew up in the 60s and 70s. So there were very few trans role models around at all, just the occasional sensationalised headline in the tabloid press. So growing up with two brothers, no female relatives nearby or anything. It was a bit of a strange experience wanting to dress in girls clothes and yeah, so I felt very strange and abnormal. Obviously didn't want to talk to anyone about it. So grew up in this kind of bubble to keep my head down and not really understanding how I felt. And I suppose I didn't really start in investigating my gender until my late 20s when I became more aware. At that point I met my first wife at University and she didn't know anything about it to start with until she caught me cross dressed, came back from work early and there was an almighty bust up. But once she got that out of her system, she was accepting. So I spent probably the last 10 years of that relationship cross dressing at home most of the time and she was okay with that as long as it didn't make it into the bedroom and I didn't sort of go full on with makeup and wigs and whatever. So that was kind of kept a lid on my dysphoria and my desire to be more female. But I didn't think of myself as trans at that time. I didn't really know what it was. Then we split up, I met my current ex to be...

Nicholas, Co-host: 10:03

How long was your first marriage?

Amy: 10:05

Well we were together 20 years, married for 10.

Nicholas, Co-host: 10:10

Yes. Okay, so a very significant...

Amy: 10:13

Yeah, I've only had two very significant relationships. So I met my second wife. And we didn't have any children with my first wife, we just started IVF when we split up, she met somebody else. And that was, of course, the split, it wasn't my gender. So my second wife, we also couldn't conceive and I don't know as I say, most of my life, I haven't wanted children because I felt so emotionally broken. I didn't think it was fair to bring children into the world. And that was a lot of the tension with my first wife, when I finally said, Okay, let's do it, it didn't happen. So second wife, it also didn't happen. We had two cycles of IVF, which didn't work with no good reason. Then we moved to Cornwall. Within two weeks she was naturally conceived. So move to Cornwall for a baby. So I was 49 when my daughter was born, only child. And then I came out as trans when she was six, and I was 55. Yeah, and she's been amazingly accepting. So my ex was accepting for probably the first year. And then she realised that she didn't want a relationship with another woman. And that kind of smell at the end of that we are now on. Well, friendship terms I might say, because we co parent, and we live within three doors of each other. By design, I say because we did a thing called family group conference which was a council sponsored service, where all parents and family and friends and anyone else who has an input into the child's upbringing, gets to say what they can bring to her upbringing. And what they would like to see as the outcome. And then the child has their say, and then everyone sees what they can do to match the child's desires. So it's child centred. And my daughter's main request was mummy and daddy didn't live far apart. And that she has a trampoline.

Nicholas, Co-host: 12:54

Which was the first request? That's fantastic, family group conference. That's something we'll certainly link in as a resource at the end of this. I want to pick up on a particular phrase that you used, which I thought was incredibly insightful, emotionally broken. So you used that to describe yourself, and your journey, obviously, to healing yourself and becoming whole. What about you, Elliot? What's been your... Do you recognise that"emotionally broken" - that phrase in your own journey to becoming a rainbow parent?

Elliot: 13:31

I mean, yeah, I can definitely relate to that phrasing at different periods of my journey. I had no plan to be a parent. Absolutely, honestly. I came out as a lesbian when I was 14, I thought that was it. Thought I was pretty happy. And then I met my now wife in 2015. Through a choir, and we just got on straight away. She was originally in a relationship with a cisgender male. And unfortunately, the marriage broke down. And then, we came a partnership. And she had three children. So I then became stepmom at the time. So essentially, mum and dad became mum and stepmom, which in itself was was a big deal for the children. e kept the communication really open. And we did a lot to build up lots of day trips and fun stuff. And making sure that I had time with each of them as well to build my relationship with them. And then in 2018, which was the year we got married, in the February. Maybe it was my 30th birthday like, mid-life crisis or something. But I discovered myself as a trans masculine person in the February and we got married in the October. So that again, it was it was a massive debate. And it was quite emotional. And we all struggled, actually, all of us. I had no idea what it would mean for myself, or my relationships with my friends and family. But actually, what I learned was that my children were very important and helpful in that journey, because they taught me quite a lot just about the language used for the transgender community that I didn't even know that language, but I knew that's how I identified. So I would say, there's a lot of learning that can be taken from younger generations. And it's important to listen to each other.

Nicholas, Co-host: 16:11

That's fantastic. I think that's a really good point. And I love the way in which you kind of described a process where in the process of becoming a step parent, you also that allowed you to move on in your own personal journey in terms of realising your own transitioning. That's very, that's very positive, very optimistic. Stef, you've got the next question.

Stef, Co-host: 16:32

Yeah, thank you, everyone, for sharing your experiences so honestly, and just from hearing on a view, you kind of entered rainbow parenting at quite different stages or in quite different ways. So it would be really interesting to hear, kind of, how you approach talking to your children, or your child about your family perhaps being different to other families, or maybe you have lots of other rainbow families that you're friends with. But would be interesting to sort of see how you approach that if you had to? So Pritpal, I'd love to hear kind of how you approach that sort of, with your children.

Pritpal: 17:03

Yeah, so it's interesting, because at the time, I didn't know any other situation at all. Obviously, the internet at the time was in its infancy. So trying to find information was very difficult. And so essentially, it was most of the information that was available online, related mainly to USA. So it didn't feel necessarily relevant to me as a British man. So So I did come across a charity called Diversity Role Models who facilitate workshops in schools. I saw the website, signed up as a role model. And learnt how to share this information with children in an easy format, and that's because the problem is, just because I fell in low with somebody of the same sex, doesn't mean that I automatically understand the language and jargon, how to express things, I had to learn it myself, too. So this was a really good way for me to be able to, I guess, learn the equivalent language to use and to understand what it means. I mean, I didn't understand for example, the difference between a transgender versus a bisexual man versus a gay man versus a gay women or a lesbian. I had a chance to learn from this. The most important thing I learned from Diversity Role Models was it's all about love. When you fall in love with somebody, and it doesn't matter who they are, as long as they make you happy. And I told my daughters that I've fallen in love with somebody who loves me very much. It's a man. And they asked me,"how does he make you feel?" and I said "very happy". And they said "I'm very happy for you, too. We just want you to be happy."

Stef, Co-host: 18:53

And Kate, it'd be interesting to hear from you, as well as obviously you kind of started out in a rainbow family, I suppose. So how or have you sort of approached talking to your children about being a rainbow family?

Kate: 19:05

Yeah, I have and it was never, I didn't know how to go about it because I didn't know any other gay parents or rainbow families. I didn't know any. And now I know lots, their children over a lot younger than mine. But I always told him about it. And I started off really quite simplistic, obviously, to match his understanding of a really, really nice man gave his daddy cells to the doctor and said, find a nice lady who would be a really good mom. And somehow they picked me. And here we are. And he took that and has always owned it really in the last few, probably the last 18 months. He's asked a lot about who the donor is and any similar characteristics, and my son and I, it looks like I've made him myself. He's the spit of me when I was his age, which is lovely to see. And there's obviously those differences. Even if it's just down to his little toe or a particular face he pulls or part of his personality, of course, you know, that comes from the donor, but generally looking at him, he's very similar to me. I don't know whether that's lucky or unlucky, you'll have to ask him I think. But he approaches it with a bit of humour as well. I was explaining to him how I think Brad Pitt's probably one of the most beautiful men. And he said, he's probably my sperm donor, isn't he? So certain with it. He's got such a brilliant personality with it, sense of humour. But yeah, he has started asking questions. And I'm really open and honest with him. And now he's starting to understand how people have babies as well. The very basics of that. It's something that we've explored together. And we were both really, really excited when I got in touch with the clinic. To find out the donor sperm, the information, we got really quite minimal because it was from this country. But when I got the email back with all of the details, he was so excited. And it was something I was really worried about when I was trying to have a baby. But, amongst other things, but I had this ridiculous certainty that "Oh, as long as he's got enough love, he'll be fine." Now that boy is loved by numerous people, by many, many people. And he still wants to know, and of course he does, and rightly so it's a big part of his identity. So when the questions started coming to me, I was actually, I was okay with it. I surprised myself I was just really honest, age relevant, obviously. But when, like I said, when I got the email back from the clinic, with all of the details, that was only about six months ago, all the details we were legally allowed to have about the donor. It was a real moment for both of us, actually, it was a real lovely bonding moment. And he was so happy that I'd got all of the information. He's asked me subsequently to spy on this man and see if I can find him. We've had to put that away, too many books he's reading, but generally, he's quite, he's really quite accepted and owns where he's from, which is really beautiful to see. And he outs me at soft play, he's like "I got two mums!." And I'm sat there by myself, like, now everybody knows I'm gay. Thank you very much. But yeah, so it's an interesting journey, but he gets it. That's how we've approached it.

Stef, Co-host: 22:20

Wow, it sounds like there's a lot of kind of mutual respect and honesty between you both. And I think that's like a really positive way of approaching it, for sure. And yeah, interesting that he's kind of asking those questions and probing and wanting to find out more, and you're kind of going on that journey with him in a way so thank you very much for sharing that. And Amy, I know earlier, you mentioned that kind of your daughter is really accepting. So it would be interesting to hear about kind of how you approached speaking to her when you came out and just sort of how your family is as a rainbow family. What what did she think?

Amy: 22:54

Yeah, well, I came out quite quickly, when it all happened. I basically had a nervous breakdown and was, you know, I don't know if I should mention suicide and stuff like that. Anyway, so I decided I needed to do something about feeling miserable. And so I googled gender and depression and suddenly all light bulb went off. And I realised that I was trans after all, after all these decades that feeling miserable, not knowing why. And then, it was a case of how am I...am I trans enough to do this and break the family up potentially, and all that kind of ghastly stuff. And I decided that I was and I had to do it. And so I told my mum first and she was amazing. And then the next weekend, I sat down with my wife, and we were watching TV and I said there's something I need your help with. Because she knew I cross-dressed when we first met, I learned from my first marriage. And she said that's fine. She needed some time to think about it. And then a few days later, she said that's fine. Let's do this as as a unit. But if you're gonna do it, you can do it from day one properly. So I went and got changed into some fairly androgynous female clothes like leggings and stuff. And my daughter came downstairs and saw me and she laughed and pointed at me, saying, why are you wearing that? And I said well daddy actually likes wearing women's clothes. It makes him happy and she was like fine after that. Then the first time I wore a dress or a skirt, she did the same reaction. she'd laugh and point and go, why are you wearing that? And we'd have the same conversation. The only thing that upset me and probably upset her was when I first wore full makeup. She called me a freak. Which was..took a bit to get over. But the same thing, once she processed it, she was fine with it. And it only took like a day or two. And she was like, oh, like I've been wearing makeup forever. And she's been the same ever since she's just been. I'm just the way I am. And if anyone asks...my dad's becoming a woman. It's that simple. I'm becoming a girl, because it makes me happy. And she's totally on board. And she seems, you know, I don't know if she has difficulty processing it or gets bullied at school. She never said anything. But she's very set, determined, you know, she knows in her mind how she sees me. Still calls me daddy, probably always will. And I'm cool with that.

Stef, Co-host: 26:17

Thank you so much for sharing that, Amy. And I think a point that really stood out to me there. Specifically, when you were talking about kind of starting your transition was not feeling trans enough. And I imagine that it's probably a shared experience among lots of kinds of LGBTQ people, when they do first come out, it's like, Am I really? Or Is this right for me? Or am I making this up or, you know, all those kinds of things. And that kind of links back to what we've started talking about at the beginning around that internalised homophobia, and that kind of uncertainty around yourself. But just from everything that you're saying, you know, it's very clear that this was the right thing for you and your family are coming on that journey with you and your daughter as well. So thank you for being so honest and sharing that. And Elliot as well, with your experience, obviously, of having sort of stepchildren as well, how did your family approach talking about being a rainbow family with them?

Elliot: 27:12

Okay, so I think initially, for all three of the children, there was definitely some processing that needed to happen when we first got together as a lesbian couple. And I believe that the the oldest child who was in secondary school at the time, had the hardest time and there was a lot of bullying going on, unfortunately for her, that she actually hid from us as well, because she didn't want for us to be affected. And for us to feel bad that our relationship was causing her grief at school. And from the perspective of the primary school that the twins were in at the time, and from what I can tell, there wasn't really the same issues. So then, there was a word that was used quite a lot by our children in the early days of our relationship that was "extra.""You're just so extra." And then when I came out as trans, they were like, "Oh, come on, no, no more."

Stef, Co-host: 28:29

Super extra!

Elliot: 28:31

Super extra. And to some extent, I can understand that because actually, when you're a young person, and you're in secondary school, and you're you're dealing with all the stuff that goes with that and you're trying to find yourself, you're trying to navigate peer groups, and all the stuff that goes with being a teenager and that developmental stage. For your parents to then be, in inverted commas, "a bit extra" - it is quite a lot. So I completely appreciate that to some extent, they, they did get questions thrown at them. They did sometimes have a note passed to them saying or your mom's a lesbian in the class and my daughter would say "Yeah, correct. Congratulations, factually correct." Like I say, I think what characterises our family life is really open communication. And also respecting each other, respecting each other's boundaries. We've learned a lot as a family as we've grown together, since... I mean, I moved in in 2016. So we've had a long amount of time now to get to know each other as people and to respect each other as people. And actually, what I think is important is that just because a child is a child, it doesn't mean they shouldn't have their views listened to. Because that's just as important as the views of an adult.

Stef, Co-host: 30:16

Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. Yeah.

Elliot: 30:21

Yeah, so um, I think what characterises family life now is that we are definitely a rainbow family. Like there's all different kinds of sexual orientations, and all gender identities in our household. And that's normal for us now. That's our normal life, and with the people who we call our chosen family, who are regulars to our house as well. It's just, it's a lovely, amazing melting pot of people and identities, and we gain strength from each other, which I think is a really beautiful thing.

Stef, Co-host: 31:05

Yeah, thank you so much. And I'm totally agree about, you know, I think any sort of parent or family group who are listening to this can really take away a lot from that, about that mutual respect, and about having those open conversations, because it'll only make you know, when you were saying about the teenagers going through that difficult time where even being the slightest bit of different is horrible, you sort of hide everything. And, you know, I think you're really leading by example here of openness is always the way and then they can figure out who they are in a really safe space and kind of learn from you about how you've had to learn about yourself as well. So it sounds like a very, you know, lovely family dynamic. And I'm sure you'll keep growing and learning about each other as you get older as well. So we're going to hand back to Nicolas to talk about community.

Nicholas, Co-host: 31:51

Great. It's really interesting how a kind of common theme is starting to emerge about how we individually,d their individual stories about how all our children are dealing with our changed situation. I always remember the thing that upset me most about what happened when I came out, was that my children, both girls at a girls school, it wasn't any slurs against me, which upset me, it was it was the idea that somehow my ex wife couldn't "keep me." And when they when they bullied my children over that, I found that particularly upsetting because obviously that was a situation that she had no control over. So I find this quite powerful. So it seems to me that there's obviously a question of building community within the family structure. But then we're looking outside also to build a community which can support us and support other people like us. And I have down here to ask Elliot about, you've already started talking about this Elliot, but I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more. I think your point about different sexualities within the same household is particularly interesting on this because it's, in a sense, you're in a unique, a really unique situation. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you build a supportive community, for your family, and in the kind of wider community.

Elliot: 33:17

Yeah, sure okie dokie. I think that, as I've described, our family life is, is one where we try to encourage open communication and... but equally respecting people's boundaries, if they don't want to talk about something that's also really important, just to let that person know, I'm here for you, even if you don't want to talk right now. And yeah, as mentioned, our family, like the family who live in the household, and our wider chosen family, it is definitely a bit of a melting pot of different identities. But that can make it a really interesting place to be. And it can also be I think, it's quite important. Because then you can learn about different perspectives on things so that you don't become too narrow in your mindset, and equally with different generations of people. And, and what language is used for different generations and what is acceptable or not acceptable. And then within the wider community, back in 2018, when I came out as trans, I didn't have a clue. Honestly, I learned so much from my children about just language use. They helped me to understand about what terms I could use to describe myself, which sounds ridiculous, but actually, I didn't really have a clue. I just know that I, I'm sorry, I just knew how I felt about myself when I looked in that mirror and how I felt about myself on the inside as well. And who I knew I was really, that I was then discovering. My children helped me to style my hair. They helped me choose my glasses, they helped me go clothes shopping.

Nicholas, Co-host: 35:22

Did they choose your hair colour, Elliot?

Unknown: 35:24

Oh, it changes quite frequently. And then, like I say, back in 2018, because I was looking for support. And I had a lot of support from my family unit and my children, as I've described. But equally, I thought there must be other people out there in the wider community who are feeling the same stuff. And going through the same thing as me, so when we couldn't find anything really that met my needs at the time. So we set up our own community interest company, as you do. It's one of those like, two o'clock in the morning moments, when you think, what should we do about this situation - do it ourselves. We ended up creating Transparent Presence CIC, which essentially is an organisation that provides support and awareness of gender diversity in the southwest. And we do various things, various project work, including an LGBT inclusive choir, for example, where we can bring other members of the community into just somewhere where they're safe. And somewhere where you are always welcome.

Nicholas, Co-host: 37:01

Yeah, that's very powerful. What's particularly, I think, reassuring and kind of inspiring. And what you said was actually, at the beginning, when you talked about how you didn't feel you, you actually said "I didn't have a clue." And I think for many people listening, there's a concern or worry that somehow they need to know it all, all about these issues, right from the get go. The language, the terminology, how one approaches it. And it's absolutely fine to acknowledge your real vulnerability and saying, You know what, I just don't know, I'm learning. And I think that's a really valuable thing to communicate to anybody who might be watching. Kate, I hope you're there Kate because I wondered if you would like to comment on building the community around, yes, you are, there you are!

Stef, Co-host: 37:44

I got handed a drink by my small human. Thanks very much.

Nicholas, Co-host: 37:51

I know that professionally, you have built a lot of community around some of these issues.

Kate: 37:56

I have so I mean, when you, when we talk about building a community, for me, I look at the community that my son's built as well, which I think that for, you know, for his development is incredibly important, as long as it's the right community there in his formative years anyway. And then in turn, I think that we need to as best we can, while we're figuring it out, because just to follow on from what Elliot said, I don't have a clue. I have no idea what I'm doing. And if I look at the way I was parented, it's far removed in comparison to how I parent, my son, and I learnt and I read, and I am fortunately not the parent, I thought I would be. And it's been a huge journey for me to come on learning about, learning how to parent and I started studying early childhood development, because I didn't know what I was doing. So I really started looking into it. So speaking about the child's community and agency and everything else. And his community, his parents, his friend's parents, sorry, make a real, form a real big part of our joint community, and that level of understanding and acceptance. And, again, you know, you have to come out, you never just come out once, do you, it's a continuous, a continuation of if your life is to come out again and again and again. And I still am concerned about who I do that to, in some extent, certainly when it involves him, because I don't want there to be that bullyig,n that judgement, the difficult conversations that he will have to manage which he will have to have. And I'll have to just provide him the tools to be able to do that. So I see the communities as two fold, really his which involves both of us in a real merge in a blend of that, but also as well as my own community, and what he's exposed to and who he speaks to. I mean I have a relationship with my parents, their views don't match mine, their values don't match my neither. Sorry, opening jam for him... Parenting, you know, live on the podcast. My partner is home late today, unfortunately, she's running late. I just saw a hand with some jam. Can you open it? Yeah, sorry, where was I? It's important.

Nicholas, Co-host: 40:31

You were talking about your parents.

Kate: 40:33

My parents, yes, our values, our values do differ, you know, and I am proud that I am anti everything, you know, anti racism, anti homophobic, anti misogyny, and you have to be, and so is my son, and I don't necessarily shelter him from those conversations with my parents, because he can hold his own. And it's really teaching him the value of diversity, cognitive diversity, and having the confidence to be able to speak up to people in power, even if it's just through age, and the societal pyramids, that they sit relatively at the top because of who they are. But he can have those challenging conversations. And for me, one, it's incredibly important of being a decent human being, but also stand him in good stead to have those difficult conversations as he grows up.

Pritpal: 41:25

So from my point, it was lots of multifacted, different communities I had to be part of. So obviously, the rainbow dads community was really important to me, Nicholas and I came together on that. And then also connecting with other gay and bisexual men, frm ethnic minority backgrounds, which is very important. There's quite a lot of racism within the LGBT and mainstream community, it's reducing but there's still lots of stereotypes as you can imagine. And so it's really important to connect with others. So we can have safe spaces, and we can create a safe space as well. Then, we don't have to face racism alone. I'm very much involved with Sikh communities being visible. I can't hide my faith. So working within the Sikh community, LGBT plus inclusion, that's really important as taking me down the path of actually working not just in the Sikh community, but lots of other communities as well. So there's lots of work I do, for example, within the Christian community, muslim community and in the Jewish community, so we can work together to get this within LGBT people, but equally tackle the prejudices that the mainstream LGBT community have about people of faith, because some of my Christian friends, for example, may find it harder to come out as Christian in the LGBT community than they have coming out as LGBT, lots of different communities really.

Nicholas, Co-host: 44:03

That's great. I think it's particularly interesting and relevant is your is your comments on faith and how that sort of intersection between faith and sexuality and how that can, how important it is to, to acknowledge that and and to talk about that in a positive way.

Amy: 44:22

Yeah, I suppose. When I came out as trans I didn't actually know any other trans people I knew some gay guys from previous times. So yeah, parenting in general, I think when you become a parent, you think oh, there's the internet and there's books and that everything we'll have an answer whatever goes wrong, whatever sniffle your child has, you'll know, you'll be able to find out what it is. You soon realise very quickly that there's no straight answers for anything and you're pretty much on your own. And it was the same thing when I came out, it's like, well, how do I, where do I start? And I joined various support groups and went to pride events and networked with people. And through those support groups, met other people. And I now volunteer for into contrast, an LBGT charity, and they run family days and have done for a long time. And I went along as a representative of the older generation, to show trans young trans kids that there is a future that you can just go to work and have an ordinary life of drudgery. Being trans is not not a barrier to being a, you know, fully signed up member of society. And from doing that, I met somebody from another charity who wrote a booklet for older people coming out to their children, which is particularly interesting. But through the support groups I've met a lesbian couple in a lesbian marriage, and much like he had a donor son, who was same age as my daughter. But then, one half of the lesbian couple came out as a trans male. And then they split up, but now the trans male is in relationship with another trans man. So the gay couple now. [Amy's daughter's] been through this experience, and she comes along with me to the family days, and she sees this whole spectrum of LBGT children and is totally immersed in it and just sees people as people, which I think's amazing, because she doesn't judge anyone by what flavour of the rainbow they are. She takes everyone at face value and treats them exactly the same. I think it's amazing. Yeah,

Nicholas, Co-host: 47:17

That's fantastic. I think that there's a couple of very powerful takeaways from this round of answers. And that's that when we all start out, many of us don't have a clue, to use Elliot's phrase. And that's absolutely alright. That's absolutely fine. Because through conversation, through Kate's answer, Pritpal's answer, Amy's answer, there's a sense in which by volunteering or doing something, or joining an organisation or support group, you will start to find your place in that tribe. And you will start to gain confidence and a feeling of empowerment, to deal with some of the potential brickbats that life might throw at you. And that's my rather clumsy segue to Stef for the next question about difficulties and how we deal with difficulties as rainbow parents.

Stef, Co-host: 48:11

Thanks, Nicholas. Yeah, so it'd be obviously we don't want to make this podcast all kind of dreary, but it is really important to acknowledge kind of the difficulties that you will have faced, I mean, I'm sure every parent, you know, experiences difficulties, just being a parent, it sounds like a very difficult thing to do. I'm not a parent myself, so I can't relate to those particular things. So if there have been any sort of particular difficulties that you faced, in terms of being a rainbow family, it'd be really interesting to hear how you approach dealing with it, as all of you have kind of spoken about your journey in terms of, you know, learning about yourselves and having to, you know, kind of go on that journey. But if there were any sort of difficult moments, how did you overcome them? And would that help any of our listeners who maybe are from a rainbow family who might be going through a similar issue? So Amy, I'd really love to hear from you about that.

Amy: 49:06

Yeah, I suppose the the hardest thing for me was starting out. Because I had very little idea of how to present and I was very much a bloke in a dress, but you know, I was wearing it with pride. And nothing was gonna stop me. And very soon after coming out, I had to go to my daughter's school. For some reason, I can't even remember what it was. So I turned up pretty much as the bloke in the dress before any hormones, before knowing how make up worked properly and that was daunting. I was terrified. But you just got to believe in yourself and do it with confidence and you get all kinds of strange looks from kids. And to be honest, those are the things I get most often, I work in a customer facing job. So I see the general public 24/7 when I'm working, and I get very, very few comments only from very drunk people, when their filters are all off, but everything else I seem to get by okay. But it's mainly kids, and you can see them looking at you computing, what is this person in front of me? You know, they look like a female, but they sound like a male and they can't quite work it out. And you can see them as the parents walk off, and they turn around, and they're still looking at you trying to work out what what you are. So, yeah, children when I first came out, were quite testing. But since then, doing it with confidence is is my solution to it. I think I told you on the pre broadcast thing that taking my daughter to public toilets. As I mentioned she calls me Daddy, when she gets excited, she goes "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy!" you know. And the first time I took her to a service station toilet on a summer's day, which was crowded with people, she got excited about something and started shouting out in the cubicle,"daddy, daddy, daddy." Surrounded by women, which was a little bit interesting, so had to have a conversation about what words you use when we're in public. But generally speaking, I haven't had too many difficult moments. Yeah.

Stef, Co-host: 52:00

That's like, really, you know, that is a positive story out of this question. And really something that came through a lot of what you were saying is just why education and honest, you know, open and honest conversations with young people and children is so important. Because you know, nobody's like born homophobic or transphobic. Like they learn that. So if we can kind of keep those conversations really open, and as you say, age appropriate throughout this, then that's a way to kind of make, you know, make that easier for everybody involved. So Kate, I wonder if you've had any sort of difficult experiences, or any tips you might have for our listeners on how to overcome any of those difficulties that you might have experienced? Yeah, I mean, the internal stuff, I think you just have to almost have a bit of a mantra, and have that self confidence and maybe start exploring, personally, why you don't feel like you're good enough? Where are those challenges? And it's not the population, it's not the whole of society, it's a few. And that I can remember probably every comment, every negative comment that anybody's ever said to me about me being a parent or my sexuality so that I think you have to do a lot of self help work to...And it's really to unpick some of those again, those internalised homophobia, with regards to the wider help and the general parenting difficulties that you have, and how you talk to your children about that and how you explain that to anybody else. As you said, I'm a big advocate for education. And I, I educate as part of my my role, I work for a quite a big organisation that is predominantly white men, heterosexual men as well. And even the area where there are LGBT, we have a network, that still very, very heavily dominated by white men. They're just gay, white men. So we miss off a whole spectrum, there are all of the other parts of the acronym. So I work quite tirelessly to be able to provide a safe space for parents of any gender, any race because it's it, there's so many different, or it's just an intersectionality, isn't it? And we can't be tokenistic with our approach to intersectionality. That should be where we're leading from. It's from an intersectional approach to make sure that we meet people and their needs and we educate and explain. One of the best ways that I like to educate whether that be family or at work, and I run diversity inclusion sessions for large groups of people, is to give them an equitable comparator. So take work aside and I'll give you a really straightforward example of this. Because I'm still seething from it. I recently got engaged - wee! yay! Congratulations!

Kate: 54:51

Thank you very much - it was only last week as well. So I'm really really, she made a very good choice on the ring as well. Bless her. I am initially you know, of course I'm incredibly excited but very quickly follows that is the anxiety that I'm now going to have difficult conversations with my family. Not work, work have been incredible, work are buzzing for me. You know, they really are. My son is buzzing, he can't wait. But my family, I know I'm going to have those"Well, it's not really a wedding is it? It's not really a marriage." And that just completely invalidates everything about my life and about me, and my fiance, I can say that now. She was working in their home office where I am at the minute and my son and I, my stepmum, were downstairs and there was some guy come around to do some work to an old Kate, are you sure you're not heterosexual because that guy is lovely. I'm like, I'm still very allergic to penis. You know, regardless, it's peas, penicillin and penis are the three things I'm allergic to. And.. [laughs]

Stef, Co-host: 55:51

Iconic. That was iconic.

Kate: 55:55

It's so simple to explain, isn't it? And they will argue and say I'm not actually allergic to peas, but it's easier than people saying, just try it. And that's the same conversation I've had over the years for penis as well. I have a...that for me, it was like a little bit of a stab. It's you just invalidating. So the comparator I give to her. And I'm tempted to actually do it. Is to take an older man round to her at my dad's house and say, I found you a really nice man. Because I don't actually think you and dad's marriage is genuine. So... or do the same with a with an older lesbian, just find an old lesbian and take it to my dad's house and be like da-da! I found a match made in heaven. Why won't you, you know, commit to a relationship with this person? To give her that real basic, simplistic comparison of what it's like for me when you say that, you know, it's the same, it doesn't matter about the genders involved in this relationship. It's a relationship. It's valid. It's fueled by love, and full of lots of love, and happiness and laughter and all of the important ingredients of a really stable, strong relationship. And she makes me very happy, my partner makes me and my son very, very happy. And we're very lucky to have her. So that kind of help, that kind of education, find something that you can compare it to in their world to bring that education on would be for those particular things. And anything else, I do a lot of talks on postnatal depression, I had a lot of time, a lot of a difficult time after I had my son for numerous reasons. But family isolation, I didn't know what he looked like, I didn't know if I'd recognise him, which really played quite a part in how well you can bond with this person, you don't know what they're going to look like, you have an idea if you've got a mum and a dad, and it's, you're using, you know, the everything's working well, and you're using those, those genes, or those cells, but that proved really difficult. So I educate, I do talks to let other women know, regardless of sexuality. But it's really difficult. And it's, it's really challenging. And you have to, I say give up, make space for a new you when you become a parent, and telling people that you see on TV, everyone's so happy and laughing and full of the whole "look at this baby is perfect". But that's not the reality for a lot of people. And that's okay. So again, my advice would be going, go and reach out to people and get that support, and build a good strong support network - chosen family, as Elliot was saying, and make sure you've got those people around you to support you and champion you and your family, not invalidate it.

Stef, Co-host: 58:35

Yeah, that's brilliant advice. Thank you, Kate. And I think that really highlights as well, that just because someone is a rainbow family or rainbow parent, that's not their only kind of traits, like, you know, you'll be able to relate and other parents from your, you know, straight couples or whatever, will be able to relate to a lot of the issues that you're talking about. So I think that education piece is really important, because it's like, you're just parents like everyone else. And you're all probably going through very similar things. But obviously, you've got this added lens or different lens through which you view your family and yourself and your relationships. And yeah, the work you do sounds amazing and so important for a lot of people because, you know, there is a lot of ignorance and misunderstanding. So just opening that up to more people is just going to be really important. Thank you for sharing that.

Kate: 59:21

Pleasure. Thank you very much.

Stef, Co-host: 59:23

And Pritpal, were there any sort of problems that you experienced or difficulties and what advice would you get for overcoming any of those that you've experienced?

Pritpal: 59:33

[indecipherable] Can I have my faith? Can I still believe in God? And still be LGBTQ+. But obviously, the messaging we're getting in the UK seems to be a conflict between the two. And what was quite difficult was when people would find out about me in the Sikh community and then started pressuring my mum, who obviously didn't necessarily always get my bisexuality, didn't really understand it. She found it incredibly difficult to justify who I was. So I had the conversation with my mum to say you don't have to justify anything about my life. From my children's perspective, I've been really lucky. Because they didn't give anybody the time of day who were critical of their dad, regardless of who I am. So I've been quite fortunate from that perspective. It's one of those things that we need to provide that support whenever we need to, in families, and it's not necessarily always the children, there might be other elements of your family that you might need to provide support to.

Stef, Co-host: 1:01:55

Yeah, I think that's a really good point, and really sort of chimes with a lot of what Kate was saying, as well about how actually the different generations are sort of...have differing levels of understanding and acceptance. So I think you're totally right, sometimes actually, people older than you or your parents might need more support than actually your child to understand your situation. And that's really interesting, kind of the dynamic, and maybe there could be, you know, a lot of cross generational education there like maybe your children, or I say you I mean, one's children might actually be able to educate one's parents about this kind of thing and sort of help them to gain understanding. So thank you.

Pritpal: 1:02:31

Absolutely. My mom. When she says that my boyfriend, she's more concerned about the fact that he was really quiet. I'm like, Oh, that's funny.

Stef, Co-host: 1:02:58

And Elliott, it'd be great to hear from you as well about this kind of, can you think of a time where something was difficult and how you approach that? I imagine from what you've shared about your family, that support structure is probably really good for if anything ever comes up. But what's an experience that you've had that you've had to overcome?

Elliot: 1:03:17

Okay, so it might not sound like a big deal on the surface. But dress code at work is something that was like a big deal, and a big deal for some thing I had to navigate while transitioning. So when I came out as trans, I was working full time as a teacher. So a classroom teacher. At the time I was working at a college. And then a couple years later, just before lockdown 2020, I worked in a secondary school, which is like a mainstream secondary school. So professional dress code was really important in those roles. And I did, like I said, I didn't know what I was doing. I went from dressing as a female. And I was quite girly actually, maybe I was overdoing it, to try and compensate somehow for what I was actually feeling and thinking, trying to like bury that by being more feminine. So that as well, like my wardrobe at the time of coming out as trans was quite a feminine wardrobe, actually. And I didn't really know how to dress , in general, like in my social life, let alone dress at work. So that was definitely something I had to figure out. I mean, my family helped a lot, they helped to try and support me in that by helping me going shopping, working out sizes as well, like female clothes sizes are very different to male clothes sizes. And of course being assigned female at birth, my body shape is a more feminine body shape, as well. So trying to put my body shape into male storebought clothing is also something that a trans person sometimes needs to try and navigate. Like sometimes having to size up for example, to account for a female chest. Because actually binders, they can be great, but at the same time, they only do so much. So I got it wrong a lot. And I got told off won't lie. I got told off at work, I got pulled into my boss's office and she'd be like, nope, nope, you didn't get it. Not today. Don't wear that. And, um, it took me a long time. Actually, I was lucky that my line manager when I first started to transition was lovely. We ended up quite good friends, she came to my wedding. But yeah, it took me a long time to figure out dress code. And actually, I ended up leaving classroom teaching a couple years ago, partly for health reasons, but also partly that, as somebody who identifies within the LGBTQ community, I do enjoy a lot of freedom of expression in my gender expression, but also just in general, I'm quite a creative, colourful person. And I do find that professional male dress codes in some settings are quite restrictive. And I don't necessarily agree. I don't agree with that necessarily. Because I feel that there's an imbalance there.,

Stef, Co-host: 1:07:09

Mmm and then you definitely see that out in the world as well. Like, it's always men who are kind of never encouraged to wear colour or express themselves through their clothes, compared to like women or, you know, gender non conforming people where that's maybe more accepted or expected of them to do so. But it's really interesting what you said, yeah, just about how clothing can make you feel, I think like, that can be a really affirming thing, if you're wearing something where you feel truly you and you know, if we spend a lot of time at work, we want to feel like ourselves and be able to be our authentic selves at work. So just got another question. Just based on, you know, you figuring out your gender identity and you know, experimenting with clothes. What were you wearing, when you had your first like, proper moment of gender euphoria, when you were like, yes, like, this is me. I'm just really curious to know what that felt like for you and what you were wearing, because I'm really into clothes. So I want to hear about it.

Elliot: 1:08:04

No, it's excellent. I mean, honestly, like, I've come maybe quite a journey in terms of my gender expression anyway, in that time. So when I first came out as trans, I identified as trans male, and I used he/him pronouns. And I enjoyed looking very masculine, or at least trying to present in a very masculine way. And my first outfit that I felt really good in was the classic checked shirts, which is a staple. It was a navy blue and white check shirt with a navy blue plain t shirt underneath, and kind of baggy, blue jeans. And like, they were kind of like a man style, brown shoe. So it's a very, probably quite stereotypically masculine, quite a plain outfit. And it was I had my hair cut for the first time in a bar, but it's when I had a photo of me in this outfit, and I felt very good about myself. That's not where I am now. And I mean, as you can probably slightly tell from the camera because after a while of trying to present in a very masculine way, and I did feel really euphoric when out and about I was being addressed as male. So if somebody says sir, mate, dude, all those things felt great. felt amazing. Honestly, like that maybe lasted maybe a couple of years, maybe up till about lockdown and then to be honest, in lockdown, we all grew our hair. We all had to, you know, make do. And I explored a lot more, I explored a lot because I was bored, essentially. Like, I don't mean to throw any shade on people who identify as male and enjoy that very masculine wardrobe. But for me, that that wasn't expressive enough, and it wasn't creative enough for who I am as a person. And I felt quite low. I felt myself... my mood was dropping. And I think part of that was because I didn't feel able to express myself enough, which is when my pronouns shifted to he/they. And um, yeah, I found colour again, and nail varnish and different things. And it was very exciting.

Stef, Co-host: 1:11:00

Yeah, it just, it's just important, I think as well, when we're talking about these things to talk about. So obviously, that question was all about, you know, the difficulties and overcoming difficulties. But I think it's equally important to talk about those euphoric moments and where it feels really good. So thank you for sharing that with us, Elliot.

Nicholas, Co-host: 1:11:15

It's fascinating, once you move away from that heteronormative set of kind of what was appropriate, dress somehow does become really significant in a way that it hadn't before. You know, I'm thinking of the leather community, I'm thinking of drag, I'm thinking of all of those different versions of yourself that you can explore and try out. And I think it's a really powerful journey that one can go on in order to do to kind of experiment. And I think we're very lucky in that respect from the LGBT community that we can do that. But I want to move on to something else, I want to move on to a question of representation of rainbow parents, and I want to ask our esteemed panel, what they feel about the current state of representation in rainbow parenting, and I think a good person to answer that question first, is of course somebody who's done some work, I think, in parallel areas, and that's Kate. So if Kate is there, and is not making a jam sandwich?

Kate: 1:12:17

I'm not, no. It's his prerogative now to make his own lunchbox every day when I remind him, of course, because he will forget. So no jam sandwiches for me. I mean, you know, I do see it more. But the fact that I'm like, Oh, wow, then that for me goes to show there's not enough because it's not been normalised, it's not mainstream. So I don't think visual representation of same sex parents or rainbow families, is anywhere near where it should be. But on the flip side, I do understand that it's not necessarily easy to be able to showcase that.

Amy: 1:12:59

I think there is more representation. I don't watch much TV at all. Which is obviously, how most people consume kind of visual media. But I am aware that there is more representation of same sex parenting. But not all of it positive. Sometimes, I feel as though it's kind of tokenism, or they're there just to make up the numbers.

Nicholas, Co-host: 1:13:27

How do you think...I think I find this really interesting. I mean, I think there's a tension between depicting rainbow parenting as normalised. We've talked about that phrase "being normalised" - as a normal parenting experience, and, but also having to acknowledge that there are significant differences to being a rainbow parent, and I, you know, without wishing to be overly defensive about the media, I mean, I used to write for the bill. So it was interesting, trying to argue for those kind of issues within a mainstream cop series. And in fact, the bill, I think, on the whole was pretty progressive in our views and what we tried to do, but there is a tension, I think, between presenting a rainbow parenting in such a way as to educate the audience, but then also to honour the demands of a dramatic fiction, which can sometimes be very different. So I think we're right that there's not enough variety, but it's I suppose, in a sense, we need more, more more depictions in ordinary settings. So people feel comfortable.

Elliot: 1:14:37

I think, to some extent, it's there, it can be there if you look for it. Or sometimes if you know a person, like say, I'm a trans person, if I know that a certain person is trans, then I know the representation is there, but equally, if we don't know that particular author is gender diverse or LGBTQ, then it could just be like another name. Say, like a friend of mine is an author, for example. And you wouldn't necessarily know that person is non binary, unless you knew the person. So I think to some extent, it can be about knowing about your community. So there's like, there's lots of performers I have the pleasure of working with because we've just started putting on live music events through our Community Interest Company, partly so that we can selfishly feature the choir in the performance. But and like, for example, we've got a performer coming up who is trans male, but on the surface, if you just see a photo of him and just see the name, you wouldn't necessarily know that he's trans male

Pritpal: 1:15:58

A question that I ask everybody is, when did you last see somebody that looks like me, on TV or in the media? Probably not very often. So it's not diverse enough. So there's definitely not enough representation. If you look at in TV, news channels, for example, quite often, they're getting a gay person to talk about trans issues. And the presenters don't even understand the difference between a trans person, a gay person, a bi person, and sometimes will articulate the stories in an incorrect manner. So it's not done very intelligently either. I think it's better on streaming services, there's a lot of streaming services where you're getting a lot more diversity, lot of creativity.

Kate: 1:17:38

Answering the question of representation, from again, you know, I have created quite a large network of LGBT women. Obviously inclusive of genderfluid and trans, of course, I hear a lot of bisexual and gay women who present very femme as being really over sexualized. And the comments and this is targeted, you know, I imagine...well, not I imagine, I know, across society, you know, it's not just relevant in my organisation, because it happens everywhere. I can see some really, two different, the way that people are treated if you're a gay man, or a bisexual man, to a gay woman, or a bisexual woman, and that bears the brunt of, you know, the 80s. And the horrendous narrative that was coming out in the media at the time about gay and bisexual men. And for women, where it's quite prominent in the porn industry, that women are then over sexualized, so they're seen as a challenge to either convert, or you've not had the right man yet, and then they will grade you on percentages of how gay or bi you are. And the questions that are asked of women are really, really quite intrusive. And that isn't to diminish anything that gay men or bisexual men go through. But for women, it is different because it's so over sexualized, and that's something that I've heard in my group of women, time and time again, and targeted, you know, to the point you're out in a lesbian or a woman's pub or club, and you have straight or heterosexual men coming in to target and try and "pull" a lesbian or bisexual woman and that behaviour, I wonder whether is if you've got a particularly femme looking or presenting same sex couple, then that would then change the narrative of are they as sexualized, are they as sought after? If they're then seen as caregivers and you know a mother figure without getting too Freudian on the whole thing, of course, but I do wonder whether that may have consciously or subconsciously something to do with lack of representation, or just one reason why.

Nicholas, Co-host: 1:20:02

I mean, I just want to add to that, that speaking as somebody who does work, at the moment, I'm working on a radio play about a famous trans case in Scotland in the end of the 1960s, really interesting case. Go and check it out. I think what I would like to say also, it's important that representation, and I'm very, very committed to having trans involvement in the production. But it doesn't necessarily have to be the obvious trans involvement. For example, we could get a trans actor playing the villain rather than the hero, or a trans actor, as a director. Do you see what I mean, it's a representation within the production process. And it's important to have that reflected in the production going forward. And it is, as you rightly pointed out, it is changing, but obviously, I think that is a fair way to go. I think we're coming finally to our last question with Stef. And I think I'm going to hand over to Stef to ask a question, which hopefully will elicit some really positive answers for our audience to take away from.

Stef, Co-host: 1:21:12

Cool, thank you, Nicholas. And yeah, thank you, everyone, for being so open and honest and sharing all of your experiences with us today, it's been so insightful to hear from everyone. And I'm sure our listeners will have gained a lot from each of your very different experiences, but also a lot of the similarities that you share, and you probably share with some of our listeners as well. So just to round up this episode, it'd be good to just do a quick fire question to each of you reflecting on your whole experience, and to the listeners who are with us today. So what advice would you give to yourself now as a rainbow parent starting out? So after everything you've kind of been through with the whole process? What piece of advice would you give to yourself? And for also, just a bonus question as well. What advice would you give to anyone who wants to be a good ally?

Elliot: 1:21:57

So advice to myself? When I first became a parent, trust, just trust that you can do this. Because actually, they're awesome. My kids are great. They're awesome kids. And I've been really lucky that that I've never had that you're not my mum, you're not my dad. I've never had that actually, which is why I call them my children, I don't call them my stepchildren. Advice to myself when I first started transitioning, listen. Listen to other people and listen to myself. And advice to people who would like to be allies to the trans community. I would say just treat us like normal people actually, like we're just trying to live our lives. Like Amy was saying earlier, we have jobs we go out and about in normal places, we drink coffee, we go to the cinema, we do all the things. We're just trying to live our lives. So just treat us respectfully. And don't ask weird questions.

Stef, Co-host: 1:23:35

That is fantastic advice, totally with you on all of that. So thank you, Elliot for sharing that. And Pritpal, what's one piece of advice that you give yourself now as a rainbow parent?

Pritpal: 1:23:47

So I think a big piece of advice I would give is accept yourself for who you are. You would rather probably want people in your life and your family, to love you for who you are rather than who you think they want you to be. And so that's really important. And once you can accept yourself for who you are. That gives you a confidence and to be able to support the rest of your family and the people around you about being allies and supporters. In terms of advice to allies, what I'd say is get to know people, that might seem different to you. So if you don't need somebody from a different religion, culture, race, socio-economic and gender identity, just get to know people who are different. And once you get to know them, we'll find out actually all people are human first. And then there's lots of wonderful things that makes us all up.

Stef, Co-host: 1:25:02

Thank you, Pritpal. Yeah, totally echo that as well. Great advice for everyone. And thank you for sharing that. And Amy, what piece of advice would you give to yourself? Now, if you were starting out.

Amy: 1:25:13

I think to, well, I've kind of learned from my experience that kids are remarkably resilient and accepting. But that's contingent on the environment being that... they've got to know that they are going to be loved. And that's not going to change, you're always going to be there for them. And I think if those things are in place, that they'll pretty much accept anything else. So I think, if I'd known that from the beginning, I would have been less worried. And certainly, when I started out, I didn't know any other trans people. So if you're feeling isolated, seek out support groups, because they're amazing things and go to pride. Because the first pride I went to, I actually felt amazingly proud of myself for for being out and being visible. And also met loads of people like me, and the whole rainbow community, and realised what a wonderful place this world is, if only people would be nice to each other.

Stef, Co-host: 1:26:32

Yeah, absolutely. And that really goes back to the importance of community, as we've been talking throughout this whole podcast is that that is a really key part of you know, everybody's journey and feeling accepted and feeling like you're not alone in your experience. So thank you, Amy. That's, that's really great to share. And to wrap up, Kate, what advice would you give to yourself, if you were going back and doing it all again.

Kate: 1:26:54

I would... When you have a kid, however you come across come about having your children or child, you give people accidentally and unwillingly a licence to judge you and your parenting and have a weird vested interest on telling you how long they should sleep in your bed or in your room, or be breastfed, or bottle fed or anything else, you open the gates up. And this continues throughout the whole, until they're adults, I think, I'll let you know when it stops. But still, 10 years in people have a real interest in telling me what I should or shouldn't be doing. So my advice for any parent is to trust your intuition. You know what's best for your child. So that's a real big one that we really need to tune into, is to really listen to our own intuition. The second one is let go of guilt, it's a real hard thing to do. Because as parents, I think you consistently constantly refilled with extra guilt of whatever it is, my son really likes to hold me account. So I'm consistently feeling that guilt over, you know, mistakes or cross words, or I don't know, forgetting it was fancy dress one day at school, or whatever the case may be, or you know, that you've had a child and you're gay, and is it the right thing to do or whatever, however, that guilt comes in various ways it does, let it go. Because your child will love you. As Amy has said, you know, your child actually has to love you to survive. So let's really take as much of that as advantage of that as we possibly can. And trust that, that we are the number one fan and vice versa. So just just trusting that parenting process, you're doing a fabulous job. It's really hard having children really, really hard. We don't know everything. It doesn't matter how much I see parents who just seem to have it together. And I speak to them. And they're like, No, I don't. And people say the same to me. You've got it together, like No, I haven't. And that's okay. You know, it's part of the fun and as frustrating as they are, at times when I'm old, and they're older. I know that if I could go back to the time when they're really annoying me as small humans, then that's where I'd want to be. If given the opportunity. So yeah, intuition, let go of the guilt, and trust in what you're doing and know that you're not gonna get it right all the time. No one knows. I wing it. I wing life every single day and touch wood, so far, so good. And for allies, I would say, if you're going to be inquisitive and ask questions, then make sure they're appropriate. And they don't cross that line. And there's a real simple bar for that. Would you ask your heterosexual friends the same? And that's it. We don't need to ask whether or not my son's got any male influence in his life - he has, but that invalidates me as a parent and his experiences and puts me on a higher pedestal than any other heterosexual parents. That's not okay to ask that because you're questioning his development and me as a parent. He's a good well rounded kids. It's none of your business. So if you're going to ask me a question or a rainbow family member a question, then ask yourself if you can ask the same to a heterosexual person. And yeah, just listen as well. That's another thing. Just listen to their experiences, because I'm sure many people will hear and there's things that I've heard today that I didn't know. So unless you're going to be open to learning that and hearing those experiences of people, you don't know they happen. So real, compassionately