We spend more time at work spend more time at school than we do even at home with our own family. You know, groupthink is very powerful because if somebody does not like you, you can reach out and sense but it will make it seem like you're chatting, rubbish, and black men especially will have to tone down their voice sit down. Oh, you don't look depressed. Because somebody's depression is going to be very different to the way you experience depression. I've definitely felt very, very low. Then I'm like, why am I feeling like this? There's a small minority of people that actually enjoy what they do. When you have that mindset where you are a good worker, integral, effective, you are an asset to them. Please stop all this work agendas, political correctness gone mad, sorry, thought police, social snowflakes, Surely all lives matter. Ah, did those sound familiar? Here, Ron, you can't say anything anymore. we'll unpack the nuances of these comments, and bring sidelines lived experiences to the forefront brought to you by diversifying Group. Hi, everyone, welcome this man's podcast today, we're back in the studio. And we have a very special guest today. But before we start, this is you can't say anything anymore. I'm your host, Naomi, my pronouns are she, they? And I'm here with my very special colleague as well to help me hosts today. So if you'd like to introduce yourself, please. Hi, it's Tobi. My pronouns are she her, and I am the Account Executive for Diversifying Agencies. And I'm joining my colleague Naomi, on the podcast today. Great. And we have a very special guest here today. Would you like to introduce yourself, please? Hi, I'm Ngozi Cadmus . I'm a mental health and leadership expert. And recently TEDx speaker. Thank you. Thank you. So please look out for your TED talk. Yes, definitely. Look out for a watch that very exciting. Yeah. So thank you so much for being back. Thank you day, if you wanted to catch the last episode, it was on a quick guide to starting therapy. So that was really exciting. And we thought we'd just bring you back today as well. Everything. Um, yeah. So we want to get started. So let's talk about mental health at work, and specifically with the lens about looking about mental health, and how racism impacts mental health and the workplace and everything. So how would you define mental health? What are the things that can impact someone's mental health at work? Okay, I like to always keep it simple. Because you can always go on Google and find the definition of mental health and mental illness. But I would say mental health is about how you perceive yourself, in relation to the world, how you perceive yourself in relation to others. And you know, how you feel you are in relation to like your job and your workplace, as well. So it's really how good you feel in yourself. And it's really about how you're able to function. And I guess what they say in society, whatever that might mean to you. Right. And because we're linking it to work, it's it is how you function at work, and how you perceive yourself in your position within work. Because if you have mental health issues, unfortunately, you can't separate that from your personal life. And your work, life is going to show up, especially if you work in a very high paced, you know, and pressured environment as well. And work is such a big thing. Because when you really think about it, we spend more time at work or spend more time at school than we do even at home with our own families. So majority of our time, even on this earth is spent in some sort of occupation. When you really think about it, it's really, yeah, if you're not happy, especially with your job, and you've got mental health issues, underlying mental issues, it's going to exacerbate it as well. And I think we've work beyond the work. And when people have what they might think job career is a lot of its entity your purpose, you want to feel like you're contributing something of significance to society, right? Because, you know, life can go really quick. And when you get to 80/90. When we talk to a lot of elderly people, sometimes they have regrets that, oh, I wish I did this. And I wish I did this, and I say don't have regrets. So work is an important thing, because work, you know, brings us money to live. And as we know it in that economic crisis. Things are hard inflation. So work is such an important part. Because if you're not, if you're doing a hard job, you're not getting paid enough, you're probably not happy. If you're doing a job that you don't like you're not happy. There's so many factors with this. So there's a small minority of people that actually enjoy what they do. Right? A very small minority if you asked most people nowadays do you enjoy your job? 90% of the time, They don't. They don't. They're just doing it because like you said they need money they need to work to live. So yeah, a lot of people are not enjoying their jobs at all. And that's for some people that is we will say less people that don't have an underlying mental health issues. But let alone if you have an underlying mental health issue on top of the fact that you're not happy at work. Yeah, right. It's going to be even more exacerbated and tough. And it's tough for most of us that may just have you know, maybe just what mental was The spectrum. So I just want to maybe say that because some people say, Oh, well, I don't have depression, but I sometimes feel low, which is fine. So it's just important to say that there are people with diagnosable mental health issues. There are some people right at the borderline, you just haven't been diagnosed. And there's some people, that majority of people don't have a diagnosable mental health issue but can experiences similar symptoms, but it's not in the it's in the acuity or severity as somebody who has a diagnosable mental issue. So most people have experienced the feeling unmotivated, low mood, can't be bothered. But it may last a day or two, somebody with depression that will last a bit longer. Just to give some examples, or you might feel nervous, starting a new job, somebody of anxiety can actually stop them go into a job, they actually like, the difference is we've got oh, oh, I thought that yeah, you thought that but it might just be somebody else might have that more prolonged and more persistent. That's the differences. Because I was gonna say, everyone has mental health, right? Everyone's got a mental thought. And like you said, it might not be diagnosed. But everyone still experiences kind of the same type of symptoms, when you're feeling low, one day feeling unmotivated. But it might not just be as far as depression. So I totally agree with that. Because I would say I've felt I've definitely felt plenty of times very, very low, not motivated. And I'm like, Why am I feeling like this? There's nothing that's really triggered me at all. But I'm just not feeling up to work that day. But yet everyone has like that mental health is just where are you. It's like physical health right? And then we're all in the spectrum of poor physical health or not, yeah, some people will have physical health issues. And somebody could have physical issue, but they'll be very fit. Some or some of us could be have no physical issue, but be very unfair, and actually not be healthy. So similar in that way, we all have mental health. And we all have physical health, we all have emotional well being these are just your everyone's born with that your mental health is about your state of mind, maybe it's another way of saying it, or state of mind, when your state of mind is disordered. That's when it's a diagnosable mental health issue. But we all have elements of disordered thinking, right? If that makes sense all have ample of that disordered thinking. So, for example, example that you've given, right? You might just wake up one day, and just for like, just really upset? Yeah, well, let's say you do a lot, you do a, let's say, this podcast goes out, right. And you just get negative feedback, right? That could trigger maybe back in the day when used to get criticised from family or from school. And that can take you into a spiral, and maybe for a week, or just really just feel terrible, you don't talk to anybody in the next week, you kind of get over it, somebody when somebody else might then stay in that triggered period and low period for longer periods. After three months. That book was long with me, they've now developed depression. Yeah, right. So a lot of it is to do you would see with depression, specifically time, length of time. So we've all probably experienced symptoms of what we say depression, how, how a GP, or psychiatrist or clinical psychologist, those are the people that can diagnose those type of mental issues. That does it is based on time. So let's say somebody passes away, it is natural to feel you're grieving or sad. Now, they will probably be bit concerned, if it's lasted a whole year and a half, and you're still in that level of darkness and state, that's when they'll be like, Okay, maybe borderline depression. So some people argue that you can get diagnosed too easily, because sometimes it says in African DSM, it says two weeks, which I think that's a bit two weeks. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a bit too minimal. I think it should be a bit longer, because I think actually, this last two weeks is probably quite normal. But I now think maybe six weeks, especially these days, yeah. Lots of is really sad. But if it's six weeks, so yeah, so the DSM has a lot of criticisms that people feel that the the people are more diagnosed now than it was before. Because it seems like the symptoms have become a bit more encompassing. So things that you think, oh, that's quite normal that Oh, and that's a mental health issue to that, well, is it a mental health issue? Somebody can be sad for today, next week, you've been depressed as well. Maybe it's actually quite normal maybe for six weeks or two months stead. So that's why when people say they've got depression, they've been diagnosed, you do have to answer that sometimes the GP can just diagnose you, you could have a bad month, and you'd be really sad for TVs and get diagnosed depression. You think about Wait, you mean, I'm not actually depressed. Maybe after three weeks you got out of that mode. And obviously, there's different different, what they call it different depression. So there's that depression is one umbrella term was actually different. Depression is the same as different anxiety or social anxiety, general anxiety, agoraphobia. You know, OCD is part of the anxiety table, and then you've obviously got schizophrenia. And within that you've got schizoaffective disorder. You've got like different levels of psychosis as well. And the way I tell people about this, and to make it easier, is that it sometimes the diagnosis isn't as important. It's about what it means to you because somebody's depression is going to be very different to the way you experience Depression. Somebody I've been depressed. I didn't get diagnosed. I didn't go to the GP when I was really depressed. But that's partly because my GP was really just he was not. Yeah, that I wouldn't even think to go to the GP anyways. But when when my depression was very high functioning, so I wouldn't be looking so basic. Yeah, most people think, Oh, you don't look depressed? Yeah. I wouldn't say yeah, I'm not sad. I hope I'm sad. In my bed. Yeah. And I didn't know. And I was still doing or going to school, I was working. I was doing everything that you need to do. But I was just sad. Like, just a husk. Yeah, just a husk of a show of myself. But I but because also I've got extroverted personality as well. So a lot of extroverted personalities, type people will find themselves in a situation with depressed, it's very difficult to be seen, because you're smiling. You're the life of the party, you're making sure. And also, there was this kind of weird dynamic with my friends back in the day now was not there anymore, that if I was quiet or sad, everybody got concerned, and it affected them because it used to be in that way. So what's going on what's going on? So I found that very uncomfortable. So I'll quickly go, you know, back to my normal, I don't want it to be like showing, yeah, because then everybody's thinking about what's going on. You're okay, what's up? And also, everybody has a role. So sometimes, I don't know you're in your friendship group, right? You might be the mummy bear. Yeah, if you're no longer the mummy bear, they don't know what might happen is that if you just have people that stop people pleasing, when they stop people pleasing, and they find that their friends withdraw, because they're upset that way, you know, people pleasing anymore, why are you not doing things for me? And why you why you say, you know, the dynamic has changed in the relationships, right? That's why people stay because they realise that if they stopped being a people pleaser, so they stopped at work, for example, saying, Oh, I can do it. Oh, I can do that out organise a party. I do all of this. I'll do all of that. I'll do whatever that older, wherever they are they going to be valued in the company. Are people going to remember them? You know, default of not saying yes, and the thought of not helping that was so scary. Because you're afraid of being rejected. You're afraid of maybe like, you know, passing over a promotion, you're basically scared of not being being relevant. Yeah. Not being wanted and needed that essential part about people pleasing, then, yeah, everybody's reasons is different. So some people will be scared of abandonment. It can be scared of rejection, but there's a fear people people believe because of a fear of something that's unpleasant, that they're going to experience because they experienced it when they were younger. When they didn't do something, they had the consequence of it. And there was too much they didn't like the consequence, but I need to start writing these down is a very important thing we all need to start learning and start really just sort of getting that inside Yeah, I feel like people pleasing is one of the most talked about things lately especially text, you know, as you just give all those examples, but like volunteering to do things overstretching yourself, like people pleasers can really stress themselves out as well because you're just constantly because I was listening to an influencer this morning doing one of our vlogs on YouTube and she said that last year she had to really be harsh with herself and her friends and family around her to stop being a people pleaser because she was too stressed saying yes yes yes, yes yes all the time and she she wore herself out so she said that she had to really like change into a militant in a way and start saying no, and unfortunately like I said she lost friends right? She couldn't would they really be real friends that I guess no, no, probably not. Because if you're always expecting something from your friend all the time and then when they can't show up you're not being sympathetic and compassionate to their situation. Which is not good that's not a friend is it? When but what can happen of post Yeah, oh, yeah. So let me say that a winter they were not a real friends. I will say that this is how it things happen is right. We all unconsciously operate so when you look at your friends you meet a particular need for them then particularly so if you're the person that is people pleasing they've got probably a personality that likes people doing things for them Yeah, so it fits really nicely Yeah, okay do things for them and they like you doing things for them they're always dependent always nice. Oh my god. Well, babe, can you help me get my head on over if he ordered me that thing? I'll do it. I'm on Amazon now. But then when the person goes actually this is not serving me anymore and change that person. That friend might experience rejection Yeah, so they're not it's not always Oh, don't do anything for me it could be like oh my god, they feel rejected now they don't understand that I'm changing because it's a conscious thing where they go Oh, I like to use my friends no one's thinking that yeah, okay, they're thinking oh, you've changed yeah see you're no longer there for me anymore you're not you're not you're not support this friend this dynamic and then when you don't get it they're like oh, wow, is this but you're not been a friend? Yeah. So they probably interpret in that as a friend from you definitely anymore. She's just changed a dynamic that was no longer serving her Yeah, so we've you've got to also change it should they did they may they decided to choose to withdraw. And sometimes this is my This is my issue with therapist. When I teach my clients to change their dynamic, I say that you have to communicate that, right? Because you don't understand that that person's got their own dynamic that they're not fully aware of. So you can't actually get angry at some people around you because they don't know. It's all unconscious. No one's sitting there consciously trying to just use people. Some people are some of the most people are not is all unconscious. So it's not as simple as like, Yeah, what a good friend. Exactly. It could be a Dangerous Dave perceive you're known now as a rejection because they've always heard your Yes, I see. Yeah, that makes sense. communicated that to them. And they might go oh my god, it's true. But I'm always like, I'm always pulling. Yeah, I need to learn how to stand on my own. Yeah. Okay, then you can reshape and renegotiate the friendship is when it's when they withdraw themselves and they're not willing to change themselves and compromise. Yeah, it's like yeah, yes. It's a red flag then. And we don't communicate friends right. I never talk about workplaces but when you think about it romantically we will do what are we? Right? We friendship we don't do that. We just are friends. But this change and yet even and work friends, right? In fact, that could be called them work. Friends. It's so mad. It's not like a real friend. Yeah. Because sometimes when you leave work you know how you when you're talking to someone? You friendzone them? Yeah, friend zoned? Oh. You've made it clear to them. You're my work friend. So outside of work, do not call me Do not Yeah, not do these things. You've worked zone. Sometimes you can like Miss read there and think that they're your actual friend. Or they can think that about you. And then they try to like arrange something. Yeah, there's like a bit of like, I didn't have to say non symbiosis, I want to say, and then you didn't realise that you were in their work. friendzone but they were only doing your personal friends. Yeah, yeah. Communication, again, is important, but I think it's we're not, you know, unless we're five years on without you and be my friend. We don't really do that anymore. Do we? We kind of just are just friends. Have you ever used your full name at work? Like in a work context? Yeah, I have. And it's how was your experience on that? It's always when I was younger, I used to be very, very frustrated because I was like, why can no one pronounce my name? When someone can pronounce? What's What's that? Is this wash? Nigga? Why would you say it? I know Schwarzenegger? Yeah. Everyone could pronounce that live. It was only right there. I didn't have to say it but we just hit unsourced. lossky Conway? Yeah, it won't take off Czajkowski trifle, just the one from seeing beauty, like the same names. As anyone's name. Everyone, most people can pronounce that. But no one could pronounce my name. And I was very, like, aggravated. But as I've got older, I'm like, I don't really care now. Like, you can butcher My name as much as you want. I and I understand now. But yeah, I've had to use it in the workplace many, many times. And some people have been like, I'm not even gonna pronounce. I'm gonna bother to pronounce this name. Wow, could you at least try? I did that like make you feel that? And if you if you don't mind, it made me feel irrelevant. Yeah, you can say other people's name. But you can't say mind because it's something that is not of the everyday norm name. So I just, I will just quickly pipe up and say this is how you say my name where people go. I go by Toby if that's easier for you. And then I just keep it pushing. But yeah, it's, it's just not nice. Yeah. Is what it is. I've come to terms of it. There has been there has been research that has indicated that people with potentially African sounding names, and in America with that typical black sounding that should equal may not get seen for jobs. Yeah, that's not surprising. Yeah, that's, yeah, yeah. It's sad. But yeah, because the stigma that's behind that name is she's she's probably rude. Exactly when we when we know for a fact especially woman, in America specific. And even in the UK, Asians and black, particularly like Chinese and Indian and then black African, are usually even more overqualified than everybody else. So making the assumption is actually ridiculous. We're probably overqualified for the job that we've been applying for. Yeah. But as you overqualified for the job like we usually apply. That's how bad it is. Yeah. So it's a wrong assumption. But yeah, that's where a lot of people with African sounding name, so we're somebody whose name is Shay on 100. And in property, they will do Shawn because they know that if they put their full Yoruba name, it may not they may not be seen, but if they make it seem as English as possible, then they might get to the interview. So that's why I don't know if in your company they're trying to do don't put people's names just put their CV without a name, but then you can judge based on the qualifications to experience then if you see a name of, oh, where's that person from? Let's guess the geography and guess where that person's from? Okay, right now it's question. So how does racism and feelings of exclusion, especially in the workplace impact mental health? Terribly? I think for most people, I think there's always going to be a small minority of people that just they take it in and they just, they become that bulldozers, right? Maybe that's me, I'm gonna have a question, but it's because of my background. So most people racism, and you could even be colorism and some answers but racism and exclusion you want to speak for our listeners like the difference between colours, okay. People quite like confused. Yeah, you could just very simply close them the sister race or colorism is an experience the phenomena that's described as discriminant discrimination in so let's say this is me, black people, discrimination to darker skin tone black people, darker skin tone Asian people, it only exists within usually, people of melanated complexion meaning that Asian white people you have 20 Different times if there's columns in there. But we've Asians and black people, anyone with melanated skin that we do is that it's discrimination towards darker skin tone. It's not reverse colorism. It's a different name. So people will say, Oh, but that skin light skin, Asians or black people will have their own situation but it's not called colorism. colorism, they find on Wikipedia, it tells you is discrimination against darker skinned people in the same way. It can't be a colorist to me, although they can in a certain way because they can prefer a darker and lighter skinned black person. But yeah, we wouldn't call that colorism. It's just racism but you're you're preferring the light skinned personal ism is the dynamic created into the group? Yes. intergroup or forced on by systemic racism? Yeah. And creating the hierarchy of latter is better because like it was closer to white everyone as well is just it doesn't blow my mind. We all know why. I'm saying that it just every group it is just is that the factor is Yeah. And there's this this? Yeah. So that's it, so that they probably David everage, that in certain dynamics at work, if you're working in a lot of if you're working in a very ethnic environment. For most people, racism would be what they would experience. And racism means that if you're experiencing any kind of discrimination or prejudice against your skin colour, and obviously, if you're not a woman, or a man, you have that intersectionality, etc, etc. And you're excluded, that means you're excluded from probably promotions, you're excluded from just informal event or going to the pub, I might want to go to the pub, why wasn't I invited? Yeah. You're just you're excluded from what happens at work. And we've already talked about how for most people work is what they do most of the time, nine to five, eight to four, eight to six, you're in work more than you at home. So if you're excluded from things at work, it can be very isolating, very demoralising. Just to be seen as you know, the blah blah, one. Yeah, it's just it's just terrible. You have no, you like, there's something about if you're gonna go to a team meeting, you've got a friend and you just go with your coffee and you're talking and then you sit and then you have your meeting or something. It feels nice. But imagine just go out on your own and sit in now and everyone's chit chat in together and you're just by yourself and you're just on your own. Then when you speak a typical Phillip back in secondary school, it's really that secondary school when you speak and everyone's snickering even if people are not doing it, because they're adults, and they're not going to snigger it, you feel that way, right? Because you're not having that kind of like, say it, speak it or you're seeing you're seeing people that you like kind of nodding their head, but because you're talking sense, you can be making a lot of sense for somebody. And you know, groupthink is very powerful. Because it's someone who does not like you. You can reach out and sense but it will make it seem like you're chatting rubbish. Yeah. So you can be a situation where you say something to your, your, your whoever, your manager. On the team, you might say, You know what, guys? I think that we should for International Women's Day today, we should do a nice post and celebrate everyone suddenly, then somebody else do the exact same thing. And they've never heard of it. Yeah. Why always had the great idea. Yeah. You said that. Exactly. Those are the small examples of how you would feel excluded. And it's just there is no way eight hours of a day that you can just take that and just feel okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense as you compiled on Yeah, and day after day after day after day ringing when you when you start to bring that home as well. It's not good because like I said, you're you're at work all the time of your life because you go to work nine to five and then by the time you get home, relax, don't eat your dinner. It's nine o'clock. Exactly. Want to go to bed. Exactly. Recycle as a sophomore being in that mentally all the time and feeling excluded. Yeah. be undermined. Yeah, feeling racism as well. Like, it can escape it was exactly direct. Very few people nowadays is gonna be like, Yeah, and you decide that it's going to be via undermining. It's going to be via passive aggressive email or, like, singling you out, singling you out. You make a mistake and the mistake isn't even major it becomes a big deal or somebody takes credit for the work. that you know you've done is these little things that happen and they are. They're small erosions of your self esteem of your confidence is, like I said, when you when you speak, you're speaking Wow. They'll be like, Oh, we don't see what you're saying. Can you say that again? Making you question yourself, but you begin to that you basically feel like you're ghastly. Yeah. You know, is it not making any what is going on? Am I not making any sense. And like I said, work is about feeling you're contributing to society. So if you're trying to contribute to society, but you're being told that your contribution is worthless, that's going to that's going to knock your self esteem and your confidence interesting, I guess, as well. How much would you say then like this? The kind of like self combat of like stereotypes, specifically, you know, you have in your mind like, ideas of other people have stereotypes about you that you've developed and known throughout your life, because people have reacted to you in a certain way. Or they've like, just said things about your assume things about you? And then what would you say then was, how does that affect you, when you bring it to work? You know, people, some people like to, we always hear that people who over concept compensate, you know, like to combat a certain stereotype or try and go, Okay, so like, if, for example, me and Toby will have the angry black woman, yeah, might have the docile like, Asian woman, right. So when even at this, I could be worse speaking, this is not aggressive, but let's say somebody else, or maybe, let's say, white person, and we're having a conversation, should I be like, No, she won't be doing this. I'm doing my hands. And she's waving back. Like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not attacking you. Or she might even be like, Oh, that calm down, you know, I'm calm, we're having a really good conversation. Or a friend even gave me an example where she was talking to a person, a recruiter, actually. And we're just really grateful. If I if I could show you this was in real life, get you a drink, or just like, you know, when you're trying to show your appreciation next, and the next day, her husband said to her, did you ask for this person's personal number? No, I just said, If I saw you, I would love to pretend to do it was like, how did this person perceive a conversation? I was really grateful for you as, yeah, she wants my personal number. She was begging to be my friend. That's to me, that's quite scary. You can just be really friendly to somebody, somebody say, Oh, I think you do this, or you having a passionate conversation up in a very aggressive. That's what makes been in the workplace kind of scary, because, thankfully came to her husband. But imagine if it was a manager, saying that you're you're being unprofessional in the workplace, because you are crossing boundaries. And you're thinking me, I want to be I want to be a friend. I just said, If I saw you in real life, we could we can get a coffee for me to show you appreciation. It's just a funny thing. The funny thing to say is it doesn't like it's not that deep. And you know what the problem is, was something like that. It's it's going to be based on hearsay, she say, you've got no proof to say. So that person can really gaslight and ruin your reputation and ruin it. And in the racism aspect. Who are they going to believe me? Exactly, exactly. And in that moment, gender roles, who are they going to believe exactly? A male they're going to believe exactly. And in that moment, you're actually vexed and you're thinking crap. Now I'm seeming like I'm angry. But I am angry because that person has lied. The gauge is gonna get laid, their manager will say Calm down, you're not happy. If that was you? Wouldn't you be upset if somebody told you he was multiple times of your life continuously? If it wasn't, this is not your first rodeo? You know, exactly. First time you've been so and you mentioned a good point about stereotypes. One of the things that a lot of black women feel is this. And I think a lot of women of colour before this is this kind of sense of what's the word, editing themselves, you got to edit yourself, like when you're trying to speak, are really passionate about something, you might hold your hands like this because you know that if you start using your hands, and you might have to slow down how you speak. And I was I come from London, I come from a particular area in London that we speak like, I don't speak like this, but we have a certain way. Now when you're in a corporate sector and a work, you know, obviously not going to speak like that because there's a professional way of speaking right that to be really there's not that it's not professional, but me speaking like that, when I'm really passionate will come out more when I'm passionate. I'm not crap, they may assume something else that might seem that I'm educated enough. So I'm have to speak to someone to constantly self edit this tie you in communion with your friendship allows you to do your work. Oh, yes, sir. Okay, sir. It's a lot of self editing. Yeah. Just just to say the same thing. So if I'm passionate, and the thing is people, you know, especially Monday mornings, boy, don't be too excited. But Can people look at you? Are you okay? Is that why should I edit myself? For you? uncomfortability mate, if you don't like Monday morning as your business you're not I mean, why have I got so calm? Because it seems like I'm too overly excited for Monday mornings, or, and a lot of people have a lot of people in your audience that are listening will have the if your man, you know game, especially men, that aggression, they've got to really black men, especially will have to tone down their voice sit down, don't let them stand up and talk in front of a white woman sitting down. Oh my god, how does that look like? Or standing in front of standing up in front of a white man that's like your will go and go? No, I'm just talking to my manager. I'm just talking to a colleague. These are the things that everyone experiences that I've been fortunate not to experience that but I've seen other colleagues experienced that. And what makes it really worse is that it's not always obvious. You're constantly thinking. Do you think that my progression gets a question? Even though most people honestly don't go Yeah, that's your mashed potatoes. Maybe you've got a bad day. Maybe it's my bread. Yeah. You go dead you know what are your friends like? Did you think this was exactly is and then when you realise it is it's so hurtful. Yeah. Really? Like they went there. Yeah, mine went with it. Come on. So imagine if you've got an alignment of issue. And let's say there's some people, they they've gone through trauma that okay at work, you know, they haven't the things, their trauma has not erupted. Work can trigger that, you know, long working hours, pressurised environment unrealised I'm sorry, unrealistic demands and expectations. A difficult manager, a toxic workplace, that's all toxicity really. A bad manager, terrible colleagues. Terrible pay. All of that can then build up stress and prolong stress can then develop into a physical health issue, let alone a mental health issue. They're very intimately interrelated. A lot of people that experience mental health issues in workplace will likely have maybe also issues don't have a lot of physical health issues going on. So it's very much interlinked in and what happens when you don't when you don't have that, imagine a person working order that and they go on benefits. Now, they've never been on benefits before. And they've got kids and they've got children, they've got family and in their own in their mortgage it is becomes a cycle, right? It becomes it becomes difficult or a loved one passes, and you don't you know, and then you go into depression, and then you get off sick, and then you come back. And you know, some places when you come off sick and you come back, they're angry, because obviously you left them and then somebody's got to take over your workplace. So, so many things can happen, let alone just the work environment could just happen in life. And the effects work, you're not able to work. And when you come back to work in certain environments, that tech, it goes so fast that six months a year out, you're like crap, what's happened, new technology, new software, you saw like you're behind. And if you haven't got a good manager, that's supportive understanding, then you could be feeling alone isolated, especially for the only black person or any person of colour in that environment. Who do you speak to? Anyone to look at and laugh in the room or something dumb is said, yeah, there's so many different things in the workplace. That's why it really is. And we're going to go talk and have a question. But it's really, really important that when you go to a job right now, you look at, you know, what are the policies? How are you supported? Now? What are my How do I get my needs met? Because I know some people as an employee myself, right, again, I'm aware that most of my employees are in my in work more than they are in their own personal lives, I've got to make sure that work is a good environment for them. Because the way I see it, and maybe because I'm a therapist, if your personal life is affecting you, it's going to affect your work life. So if you're going through stuff, I want you to sort out yourself, because I know it's gonna affect work. And I want you happy, we're happy you do You better work, we're happy you could work? Definitely. What do you think about that saying that's been around for years, you leave your personal issues at the door. When you go to work? I think it was because particularly in the Western world, it was made for a lot of you know, Western work was made for white men, right? So that's how they operated. That's what I mean. That's another conversation. That's why I tell people that it's not just a Black and Asian thing that's that there's a lot of stigma. Lower class white people still have that and even middle class it's just that they might see more like well, we're more open and progressive but no, back in the day you couldn't even some white papers now it's still that culture where you come into work you might not be quiet Yeah, you can start and upset put a smile on your face right. And it's because I guess there was a belief that you know, it was very separated workers work you do what you got to do and then home laugh at what you have to do. I don't think is that bicultural? Now I don't think is that that by bipartisan, I think things are very much merged right now. I think human beings have evolved to the point where not everyone can split off just so people can do it really well. Yeah, whether it's healthy. I wouldn't say it's healthy but who can do it. You got your baby boomers, they can be going through a divorce, but they will come you Gen Xers maybe a debit okay, but for millennials, we're not good. So really, truly, yeah. And we should we shouldn't need to. I don't think we can separate it because work and personal are all intermixed. If you really think about it. It was all intimate. If you wake up, and you're I don't know. You get a I don't know you get told that you've got one month eviction. I don't know how you can go to work. I just be like this. You're sitting there thinking crap, like, you know, where am I going to live the family? Can I find somebody somewhere? School have your children. Yeah, I think it's very unrealistic to expect somebody to not bring that to work. What will be important is if, if you're if you're in a safe environment if you got cycled To go safe environment, you can go to your manager say, Look, I just been told this, I can't focus, can I take all the costs, emergency B costs to just sort it out? Because it's probably all you need to say, look, let me do emergency calls. Let me talk to friends and family because we've all moved. So it's not that as we can't move, but when you're at work, and you're thinking crap, what the fallout from this is, that's when it becomes stressful. But if you had a week off, does it actually, there are lots of properties on rent that I can get in areas that really big deal is not as the biggest as you think. But if you're going to work immediately, you don't have that time to space to think and reflect, it becomes Oh, my God, I can't take it. And the next minute, you have sick, when if you had a week off, or your manager allowed that to do you don't just take unfindable? Take as much time as you need. You bet the next week, yeah, I found the place we're going to be free because I'm like, can you eat? Is that one way to say, Okay, can I find some ways that affect my children? Oh, yeah, oh, I just have a place similar pricing. But when you don't have that space, and you go to a, you're expected to act like a robot and just be okay, and just continue. That's where the pressure just, you know, powers up, and then the person breaks down. And potentially I could have been avoided with an understandable manager. But if the person feels they can talk to the manager in the first place, because it workspace is safe. If you haven't got that you're not going to do that. And you will then keep it to yourself and then be stressful at home moms, and then go to the GP and get asked for sick leave. Because you're not working in a safe environment in an environment where you can talk about your mental health and not be judged. For it. Say definitely. Yeah, I guess I kind of moved on to my next question. It's about like, what can people do to like, build safe spaces, build communities? And like, especially like in the context of racism, things? How can they kind of help with that work and kind of help themselves? If I'm honest, can you really, can you if something is really polluted? What can you do to pollute it? I think you could only buffer yourself, right? And you know, because a lot people stay in these working environments because of many who didn't believe that they can get another. Another thing. So Many factors contribute to why people just stay in poor working environments, right? So my reality is if millennials and Gen Z's are very different, you know, we probably will be no as where Gen Gen Xers and baby Bucha, but like we are staying here. Regardless of the things I do think it does depend on a person's generation mindset with me. When I was being bullied at work years ago, and I was a teaching assistant, I was I was an agency teaching assistant. So we had to go to the schools in the morning, like, I did that. But I had a fixed position in eyes, but I was agent unpaid being paid by agency. So I knew that it would be difficult to get a job because the way the school year starts, that TAS needed Yeah, I didn't want to go from knowing that I'm working in the same school every day, to now having to do like, yeah, cool in the morning. Well, I didn't want that. So I felt stuck. And I also I was trained to be a social worker. So I knew that by July by seeing you guys again. So I kind of felt like I can, it was really difficult. But I just felt let me just stay there. Even though I was depressed, and I was getting severely bullied. It was just like that. Now I wouldn't do that. But answered Why did that then it was like, Well, I'm gonna be trained as a social worker in a couple of months. See, there was like I was at the end of the tunnel. So in my head, was that okay? So I'm a very realist, I really think that I don't think you can unpolluted you yourself cannot unpolluted, especially if you're on your own. So if you're that one of the only black people only Asian people look, my my my thing would be plan strategize to get out there. Personally, I wouldn't be trying to make a bed of roses and forms. That's not me. Right? But if it is, some of you, and you feel like it's not as bad and it can change, it could just be a manager, or sometimes just that one manager, or the rest of the people are really good. Then you could try and make it better by creating groups, not groups that they create for you, your own separate groups that really support groups. You have been a part of those. Have you ever been part of those to be at work? Yeah. Like, no other Asian networks or anything? No. You know, most of my workplaces have been quite diverse. In other podcasts when we were speaking, when I said, Ernie mentioned, there was only one place for wasn't to divers, but I didn't work there. But most of my places that I've worked at, have been very, very diverse. There's maybe one or two places where it hasn't and kind of like you. I saw I had an end of the tunnel come in. And I said, Am I going to stick through this? Or should I just leave? And I was in two minds. And I said, Well, I'm leaving since I don't really care. I'm gonna I'm gonna have to ride it. Yeah, ride through it, unfortunately. And like you said, if I was one of the I was the only black female at that place, and there was not really much of what she I can do. It was for a massive company and I'm at the bottom of the food chain. Yeah, it was it was And actually, so I was in the tele sales in the store working as a an advisor, customer advisor. So imagine, imagine me trying to get to the headquarters trying to change change the entire giant room. Hi, yeah, policy, couldn't do it. So I was and thank you for saying that. Because sometimes you have these things change, sometimes you can't do the right the bottom line or your energy is going to be doing that. Yeah, it's just not really realistic. The realistic thing is to just get another job. In all honesty, and then when you be when you do apply for jobs, look at bringing look in what are you looking for? Yeah, sometimes it's not always about money. Sometimes it is about like the learning development, the well being package that you can get, because again, you spent a lot of time at work. So if you get sick, how do you look after if you get sick, because what I do tell people is that we are also very replaceable, don't be loyal, not the way our parents are loyal to a job, they will love you because they'll quickly replace you very quickly. So when you when you have that mindset where you are a good worker, you are integral you're effective you are that you are an asset to them. But you also recognise that we did read the job market is is that they will take him replace you. And you can get rid undone if you know that times are hard, you know, what you call all these big companies letting people go. So you read them again, to realise that I never see a job for life. I always tell people strategize. I call it future proofing your career. Think about where your end goal is where you want to be. And that is also part of how you look after your mental health. You've got to be strategic. You don't come into a workplace and say this is going to be me for a very long time. That is you. I don't have to work with people because I have to I like to work with people that say look, have once you once you started to actually have an exit strategy. You serious? Yeah, it strategy might be to get promoted. Okay. Yeah, job to be a job, please complete this blah, blah, blah. What do I need to do to go? Get out? Yeah. And it's because like I said, for me, Alicia, that really dropped that is a very my job. My employees, I'm trying to incubate them to support them personal audit is difficult. But everyone just like me, so managers are just there to do their job as well. So you can go into an environment and tears time still be the same entry level thing? But wait a minute, like, where's my progression? Yeah, where am I going? And then you when you size that you're like, Oh, I'm sorry, step into this exact same role. You want to go into a job or into your career, to develop yourself? It could be you're doing that just to get money to do a business, whatever it is, but have a strategy? Because if not, it is it boring, it's under stimulated. And also, when the situation may occur, it can feel very, you feel trapped. Yeah. But the most important thing, if you know that you're an asset, you can never feel trapped. You can say, Okay, I'm going through this or not really, really good. Do I have the means to actually support people? And I'm at the bottom of the future, and I can't do nothing? Can I send an email to HR, maybe that or wait, wait to my exit interview, I will tell you all about yourself when I leave. But for those people don't have any middle management now that you might have a bit more power. Look at your policies and procedures, speak to your senior leaders. What can you do to create an environment for those that are below you that you can see having a hard time? Yeah, I will talk to those middle and high level, right? I know you're just working. But remember how it felt when you were at the bottom of the rung? Right? What can you do to make sure people that look like you now even nationally, even will look like you just every single person in and below you and those at your level feel included and feel safe and so comfortable when they come into work. Because at the end of the day, again, we spent so much time at work, it's simple. people realise that, that is important that you're you're working in a room, you can't please everyone that I'm not denying that some people are always gonna have issue. But for most people that are reasonable, or they want to do they come to the workplace, they feel empowered, they feel like they can speak their mind. They feel like they are contributing to the growth of the business of the company, or what have you that their voice has impact. There's only one one to fill. And that potentially there are, you know, bonuses or promotion opportunities, right people rather be told that say, look right now, we can't pay anybody for the next two years. So if you need to find another job, we would advise you to potentially, but for those that, you know, I'm not going to roll where that heavy workload is heavy, how can we support that, rather than say going to getting paid, we get that it's very hard to get paid. But if you feel like you're getting more work on top of not getting paid more, that's when people get frustrated. Or when you have somebody else's got a bonus if things go away, I mean, they've got a bonus, or where you just you start to see differences not always racial, just that you see certain people getting promoted, you're not getting promoted when you just see unfair practices in the workplace. So everybody listen, what I will say is read your policies. If you've been in your job for a year, six months thinking crap, going back to your contract, going back to your package of care, read that is going to arm you and go crap. Dad just signed a contract and I'm not given any support whatsoever. And then if you can reach out to your HR, we talked to them, send them a message they can speak to you because they should listen to their employees because they are trying hrs job is to make employees feel safe. Feel comfortable, all of that stuff that is really hate child's job. So if HR is not doing a good job, Ron, I want to just encourage audience do not feel stuck and feel trapped, right? I want me to push people to like, leave jobs is Wayne realised that yes, it's hard. I'm not saying it's easy that you can supply for Wk, it isn't easy. But if you wish that you have an asset, you are an asset, I need my employees. Like, as a business owner, I need you. Yeah, you need me. But as if it goes on, I actually need you. Without you. I couldn't be sitting in a podcast and I'm still getting paid, I need you, when you understand that you are needed. Even if at the bottom, middle, whoever you are under the totem pole, you will recognise you've got a bit of power, right? I don't mean that that means you can negotiate. I'm not saying I'm not giving that advice. I'm just saying, Do not stay in the position in a job where you're not being appreciated, it's just not worth your mental state is not worth it. It's not the personal cost is not worth it, it isn't worth your confidence isn't worth your self esteem. Alas, he will say that is the workplace is not offering you learning, development, coaching and counselling is not offering anything other than your paycheck, again, and not a working environment. Now I know there's different things that work in zero hours, other than all of that, but if you're working a job, where you get a salary every month, and you've signed a contract, and it's not a zero working hours, they should be more what is the package you're getting, if you're not getting any of that, unless you're getting really, really a lot of money, okay, well, I'm getting paid money, I would then say to mental health, making six figures fair enough. But even that usually they would have a lot of different dental care or just basically, I this is this is me get what you want, get what you need to get from your poor years when I was working as a social worker, Oh, my I got the council to pay for every CPD, which is continuous professional development that I needed, so that I am high yield more employable. So now when I get offered jobs, I don't really work anymore. I go for jobs with my qualifications, like, do you know I'm saying because I'm working hard and they are worse, I'm working hard to make sure that that company is investing into me. But like I said, they can drop you like a hat, which we've seen, metal has laid off people they've laid off people. So at the end of the day, when you realise that to some people, you're just a number. Don't give them your loyalty, but work hard, be effective. And make sure you get what you need from a job that because at the end of the day, right now, there is no job security unless you're working at NHS potentially in your doctor. Nepotism family company, do you not I'm saying that's probably that's probably the real job security doing that. I mean, there's no job security. So don't be loyal to a job, you can just leave it the next day tomorrow. It's just it's not worth it. Right? Just be committed to your craft, whatever your craft is, and just be, you know, being terrible and be a good worker. But in terms of like, going back to your question directly about how you can make it a safe environment. I would say if you can't make your workplace a safe environment, make sure you have good safe environments outside of work. So whether it's therapy coaching solid friends and family, if you ain't got none of that. Yeah, if you ain't got none of that, then come to speak to me you need we need to, I can give you that advice, because some people don't have that at all. Which is that's what that's that's when their mental health issues get really bad. Because if your workplace ain't great, great, and you're fighting, I think great. You personally found great. Okay, so that actually brings us on to our next question. And so what can people do to improve their mental health at work? You've already literally answered it already. But I will say first and foremost, ask yourself, is it work? Because I think it's important to say that sometimes sometimes it's not working. It's your own stuff. And it's coming to work. Yeah. Yeah, we've got to make accountability. Because as a social worker, so fair bit, I've seen that sometimes knowing the problem Oh, yeah, you are the problem. Let's Let's not lie, that is really important, because sometimes actually isn't working actually is the person, you've got to make that distinction. But then if it is work, then speak to your first point of call up your land manager, social law manager. And now the law says you don't have to disclose. But if you do disclose under the Equality Act as a protected characteristic, you know, it's a disability, therefore, they should not discriminate, but they can, you know, obviously, just make sure that, you know, people are not comfortable sharing them and tough needs, because, unfortunately, managers are not really always good at doing that. So again, your HR is really important. keep receipts, guys, so if you do share your mental health difficulties, and you're not treated well, make sure it's said in writing. So Oh, can you email me please what you've just told me that I can't get a reasonable adjustment, you know, for my dyslexia, for my ADHD, for my autism for my different whatever it is, because and that's used as evidence if you have to go to an employee, you know, tribunal or what have you, but your first point of call your manager. If that's not handled, well, then you got you follow the steps in your policies at your lab and as a manager or the HR, but I will say if you get to HR and it's not handled well. I will say start looking for another job. But one thing I would always say is just keep evidence of the work that you're doing because what 10 to happen is that when your mental health is struggling, they will try to say that it's affecting your work. And if it really isn't, you find it yourself. And that's when you might need to take go to your GP and say, Look, I need some time off. Because it's true, it might be affecting your work. But if it isn't affecting your work, then you need to, again, show evidence that is not because I've got lots of clients and situations where their mental office used to discriminate against damages, totally unfair, and unreasonable. And especially if you are of colour, it complicates the matter, because even if it's your mental health, even if it's your racial and gender, you just, it's really confusing. So I'm a realist, I don't again, I don't think you could, um, pollute a polluted area, I will say to leave personally. But if you choose not to leave, then you need to get robust outside of work you to get therapy to get coaching you to make sure your family is good, because that's the only way that you can be fortified, to withstand work. So with me, to me, nobody can do nothing at work, because I'm good. So all of this, if I went through what people go through, I would be okay, I'm very fortified. Now, 810 years ago, that wouldn't have been the case, I was, I was very depressed, and I was really affected. But I've learned to get my voice back. And I understand, I'm not stupid anymore. I'm not I'm not green, I'd say so me, I do a good job, you can't tell me nothing. But everyone's like that. So for most people, they're not like that, you need to get fortify outside of your workspace without having my biggest thing. If you can't do it in work, and you yourself can't do it, your manager is not doing it for you, you've got to do it for yourself, because in all honesty, if they're not going to do it, then you're going to be left there. And when they do when they do fire you that's not good for the next job, because now you can't even use them as a reference. So I said you do have to be bit strategic, because unfortunately, if human beings, which, which are your managers are not looking after you, you've got first of all, you've got look after yourself, you can't even expect your manager to look after you hope they do, you hope it's in their contract. Some people don't do that. Some managers are not interpreting their contract properly. So I said go to your contract. So let me round it up. First and foremost, speak to a manager that you before that, read your policies, go back to your country that you signed, right, if they have written something about mental health, right, that means you can take that to your manager, because they they are responsible to do that, then go to your manager, because you need to make sure you're armed with knowledge. If you read that they haven't got that, then you're done, you just got to hope that your manager will do that. If they do have that in their policy, then the managers should do that. You have more evidence to say Look, you're young, you're contravening your policies, right? So you read the contract, read your policies, go to your manager, then if not go through the steps as at their lab manager after them or the HR, once you get to HR, if it's not, if they're still not doing well. Again, keep evidence at every point in time, because they can tend to you because HR and a lot of companies are there to protect the top, not even not the employees, not those at the bottom. So be Bear Bear that in mind, they're meant to protect you. But they end up protecting the senior leaders, not yourself. So bear that in mind, if that does happen, and you feel that you're facing whatever level of discrimination or just unsupported, right, keep evidence of that. I wouldn't say go to a lawyer, you got to be smart, go to a lawyer, seek therapy outside, then pay for the therapy now, seek therapy for yourself, seek coaching and get family support. And obviously start applying for for for jobs, and make sure your work, they cannot say anything about your work that will be there. Or the nice things would be you know, find other colleagues to support you, you know, build a team build that kind of support group. If there are employee support groups find out who started the employee support group? Is it by the senior leaders? Or is it like more the employees themselves? How confidential really is it as well, because you don't want to be talking next minute, your manager saying Oh, I heard that. You said this, you thinking What did you say? Where did you hear that form? So the reason why I'm saying all these things is because driving evil, I see all these things, but when you talk to people on the ground, they are not benefited from all these employee support groups. So this sounds all good in meetings and when you do talks in companies, but the people are going to know what rubbish thing is, are they doing that? The manager is the one that's leading, but why am I going to sit and talk to my manager when they're the cause of my issues. So that's why I'm saying being realistic. For a lot of people. All of these things are airy fairy talk. What you need to do underground is Be Smart, Be strategic, future proof your career. Do not let any manager any employer mess you up. mess up your your career, your CV, because you're just struggling because you're human, we all struggle, and also get a good GP. If your GP and good mom wasn't gonna get a new GP because your GP the same way growing up here. A lot of Caucasian people took sick leave a lot of us better ation, we don't take it take the sick leave guys take sick leave. Because they Oh, they will have a little bit of stress in there. Take a sick leave. take sick leave that is your right because that is where you then have ammunition you prepare with your family. And you start planning because sometimes you can't plan when you're in work, you've got to do work. So you take your sick leave, take a week or two of rest, recuperate and then begin to plan your exit strategy out of this unhealthy working environment. So my advice, I love it. I love that. Yeah. I agree. Yeah, I guess, I guess one of my sort of burning questions I want to ask just, you know, kind of a burning questions is like, one of the most common experiences is people of colour often they see people get promoted above them. Yeah. And you know, and I guess you spoke a little bit about how that can impact your mental health and things. And for various reasons, you know, sometimes we can't always pinpoint the reason. And sometimes it's oh, you know, very obvious. Yeah, very obvious. Things. I don't know what you're kind of, if our mental health perspective about how that kind of impacts people and Yeah, sort of groups of people and things. Yeah, impacting a lot, because because I've got somebody in my head saying this, because when I speak to some, maybe people in their 40s, now they say, I said, why you started this company, and I've been promoted, I've given so much to this company. I've had an issue type of mentality to have, man, I don't BS. You, if you've given if you if you've given too much to a company, then promote you. Yeah, you're both, you're both silly. Because you need to understand these companies don't care for you. They care for the bottom line. Don't do that. So millennials don't, because some of our Gen Z Gen Xers and baby boomers didn't quite save them. Sorry. They're like, they're like they're fixing they're way too far from us those in you know, early 40s. And those that are coming into the workplace that 21 Don't again, don't be it goes back to don't be loyal, right? Don't give up. So if you're in a workplace a maximum five years, and you've put in work, you're doing all the training, and you're not getting promoted. Yeah, you have to leave it should even taking you up for the five years. In all honesty, right? You see people tears every day going up. Not everybody wants to go up by them. So I didn't want to go up in social work, I could have gotten them because I didn't want to go up. So I left to do my own business. So I didn't want to. But if you want to, I honestly believe you know, the younger you do six months to a year probation, right? Yeah, not every company has an appraisal, but they should do like a PD Plan A 360 feedback. If in one year, you've been in a company and not sitting down talking about what next? And what next could not may not always be a promotion, it could just be another another training course. Pay By definition issue. I wouldn't personally I wouldn't stay more than maximum a year, year and a half in a company where I don't see this any move. You've been aggression, any progression, but then someone else who's not a person of colour gets like a double promotion. If that makes sense. Like somebody, you know, we've seen a situation where Oh, the people say, Oh, no, but I did get promoted. But then the person who maybe joined after them or has less experience got like double promotions in that time. Yeah, if you see any Yeah, if you see any unfair practices, or you think is not fair. And it wasn't any company, if you think your company is more than reasonable, but you just see something on what's going on. Don't talk about it, talk to your manager about it. So what's going on? Right? Obviously, there's confidential, they can't say, oh, well, that person. So you got to read behind the lines. What do you think? Is it racism? Is it just that that person I don't know, maybe she's related. We don't know why that person got promoted, you got to figure that out. If it's nothing other than just luck, fortune, or whatever, then fine. If it is something like that, and you feel that you can address it and address it if you don't think you can exit strategy and plan if you don't lack a working environment going to stay. But obviously, you got to be smart. You've got to think of kids, you've got to think of different things. Some people I will say this, some people listening who have a lot of benefits. So they basically wake up she also got the condom pros, you might go, people get promoted more than me, but I get really good pay rise, I get dental care, they pay for my trade, like you do have to weigh up finish school care can scare patients have nurseries. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So this is why I also setting I do get so when you add all of that context, it isn't easy for people to move as well. So you do have to work the pros and cons. That's why it's important. You build up your personal life, because sometimes you might be like, I should be promoted. But however, that I'm still in a good paying job or salary. Maybe your child's got three more years. You like okay, in three years time when my child is no longer in nursery, she's gone back to primary school, I can then move right. So that's why he's got a pen and got to be strategy strategic. You got to say, You got to you've got to adjudicate, you've got to take stock of your life and say, Okay, where am I? Where do I want to be? And what are my current circumstances? If you know that you are saving 1000 pounds a month of childcare in nursery because your work has has it then you might say, You know what, I'm going to keep quiet about certain promotions for next two years when I was three years old, she got two more years or even a year to go into to reception. But one should that yeah, guys, I mean, I'm God. That's what I mean. So that's, that's what I would say. But there is the employee tribunal. Opens, opens. Opens man, they were they were recourses. We now know some of the courses are a bit sketchy. That's what it's all about evidence be smart. The same way your passive aggressive colleague has CCG and everybody else but I see see people don't do unfortunately not in workplaces. They don't always do what they should do where if I Got issue if you're going to talk to you those go straight to your manager play their game you got to pay the game guys. So I've learned the game the game is is after have a conversation with you I'm emailing you straight away Solomon our conversations, got to build the evidence. We've got to be smart now because some people are stacking things up against you and you've been innocently has a power made from home, you'll be so lovely and nice. And then you get told, Oh, you're causing issues in the workplace. You're thinking I've been pies. Yeah, you big pie. You know, I mean, so that's what I would say. So I would say that addressed things as they come. Choose your battles wisely. Be very sure it sounds bad. Yeah. But when it comes to racism, we have to be sure nowadays because if you if you say racism, and it isn't racism next minute, Oh, can you use in a race card, your race car race car, I really hate that phrase. So be careful what you believe in as well. If it's worth losing a job it needs a job like you got to you know, you got to fight about or some people are activists if you're an activist and you know, you might you might run misleading job does you may make sure you get set up so as well. So what I'm saying is that be smart, right? Take stock, you sick days, I'm not gonna take advantage of you, but go to the GP stock because sometimes you can't do it just when you're at work, right. But as I said, You've got to take stock, and you need a 45 back you to come in armed. And you can only do it when you have space to think and reflect. So sometimes taking your annual leave to just literally recruit plan. Bring your friend around. If you've got a lawyer friend be like go, let's read this contract. And before you sign that contract, read No, please read your work, and it was long, but read your work and get a lawyer. Honestly get you know, 100 pounds can save you Yeah, yes. Of being in a workplace. Exactly. Yes. Well, thank you so much for having me. Love to having you here. Please come again. I will I love this conversation. Yeah, so just for our listeners again, if you didn't catch you know Gozi the first time short my we should give her Chokmah and we can call the toys. Yeah. That was so good. First time. I thought you know she has Nigerian friends. Anyways, yeah. Where can people find out to you? Yeah, follow me on Instagram. So NGOs that I see a DM us inglesi Cadmus Instagram, LinkedIn, um, you know, I'm doing good on LinkedIn, you should follow me on LinkedIn. But yeah, follow me Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube, Ingrid Academy, on all social media platforms. And for anyone that's having any issues at work, definitely speak to myself and my team, we can get in contact with you and see how we can support you in your workplace. And for any speaking engagements as well. I speak on topics about bringing more women of colour in leadership, and we need to be on boards of companies, we need to be influencing decisions. That's how we influence so we didn't I didn't talk about that. But if you want to know how we influence is we get onto the board of companies. And we make we impact decision making. That is the power at the bottom. If you're at the bottom now. We have to get to the top. So that's how we do it. So yeah, any employees that want me to come and speak your wonder, I'm not cookie cutter. I say how it is. I don't pacify but I'm here to empower people. So yeah, holler at me at inglesi Cadmus on all social media platforms. Thank you so much. Very insightful. Thank you. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, and would like to support this podcast, please share it with others and leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Keep up to date with what we do at diversifying group@diversifying.com or follow us on social media at diversifying grid. See you next time.