Diversifying Group: 0:27

Please stop all this work agendas, political correctness gone mad. Sorry, thought police, social snowflakes, Surely all lives matter. Ah, did those sound familiar? Here on you can't say anything anymore. we'll unpack the nuances of these comments, and bring sidelined lived experiences to the forefront brought to you by diversifying Group.

Naomi: 0:53

Hi, everyone, welcome to this month's podcast. And I've got a very lovely guest with me today. Definitely very excited about the topic that we're gonna be talking about, because something that I'm also very interested in as well. But before we get started with this month's topic, and this month's guest, I'm your host, my name is Naomi. My pronouns are she/they and this is You Can't Say Anything Anymore the podcast by Diversifying Group. Anyway. So let's get into the podcast. So please, would you like to introduce yourself?

Krystle: 1:18

Sure thing, Hi, thanks for having me, of course, really honoured to be here, Krystle McGilvery, behavioural finance specialist, and the founder of a company called Mind over Money. And I do all things financial well being prior to education in the space of personal finance, and business finance, especially for neurodivergent founders.

Naomi: 1:40

Absolutely amazing, I think is really cool. And yeah, so if you just like to tell us a bit about your journey towards your career in finance, and like, what initially interested you because I think I've definitely seen a lot more content these days about kind of getting more people interested in finance, and especially people identify as women, and sort of a lot of other people, especially, as you mentioned, that neurodivergent people as well identify as neurodivergent myself, and so yeah, get into all of that. Really?

Krystle: 2:09

Yeah, sure. I mean, my journey into finance was kind of difficult parents wanting me to get into it. So when I left school, I was like, Mom, I like drama. And I like maths, what should I pursue? Obviously, Mom told me to go ahead with maths. I just continued, and, you know, not really knowing what to do if I'm honest. I just fell into accountancy. So I studied financial maths. And again, just there wasn't enough people around me to kind of show me the different routes I could have take taken. I thought about becoming an actuary. Looking back, I think I considered becoming an engineer. I stayed in STEM and became an accountant. And just kind of thought a little really, and just really, eventually got quite aggressive and climbed the ladder. So got qualified quite quickly. And I think that's my competitive nature. In Yeah, really wanted to just get to the top really.

Naomi: 3:04

I love that just, you know, get to the top get in there. Exactly. I mean, I guess so I just wanted to ask a bit about kind of what that was like, what some of the challenges like I imagine getting to the top is, is pretty difficult, especially, you know, you're saying about, sort of, when we spoke beforehand, you spoke about some of the challenges, you know, with being neurodivergent and all of that. So yeah, I want to ask a bit about that.

Krystle: 3:27

Yeah, sure. I mean, my studying life was not easy. So I think during my undergrad, I really struggled, I've had to quit in third year, and then ended up coming back and doing that final year again, and getting through and being absolutely fine. But it was difficult. I think I struggled kind of on the social site to connect with people. And just the way I learned I think I was one of the few women in the class, mainly men in you know, studying, what was we studying? Yeah, just financial maths and pure maths in there, and some difficult stuff. But it was it was interesting. And then I think when I got into working, so after I finished uni, and I decided to study my SEMA qualification. I, I always knew that I struggled with understanding the concepts that I pursued. And I, you know, I learned and I figured it out. But I didn't notice that when I communicate with other finance professionals. There was always like a, almost like a delay, or I processed the information differently. And I was always aware of that, then it was like, Okay, fine. That's just how I do it. So we, you know, it often be the case that I'd have a conversation with somebody, but we've been talking about a certain concept. And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. And then eventually, I'll be like, Oh, you're talking about that. But what I now realise is that I processed that information differently. And that was a common occurrence. And it's only you know, recent years in my late 30s, that I've realised that I'm dyslexic, and I have ADHD. And I wonder if, you know, my dyslexia has a large part to play in that. But, you know, I get lots of questions. Up until today, how do I have ADHD and dyslexia and I've pursued a career in finance. You know, because it's quite common that people with those, you know, learning difficulties struggle with such things. But I think a large part of it is my motivation, I guess, you know, mother being like, yes, do maths and finance, as a young kid, that's, you know, you live up to your parents dreams, don't you? What some of us will try to? Yeah, so it was challenging in that sense.

Naomi: 5:41

Yeah, I really hear that from you that it's, it sounds like, definitely a lot of people will be able to relate to this, even if they're not, you know, divergent, but especially, you know, divergent people. Because, you know, it's very similar to my story, as well as I definitely struggled with kind of processing the information. I know, that's quite common for a lot of people with dyslexia. It's, I think, sometimes it's almost like, you hear what they're saying, but it doesn't make any sense what they're actually saying. relating to that at all.

Krystle: 6:07

Yeah, I mean, there'll be times where I really get it, you know, I'd be like, yeah, great stuff, and then it will just, I'll just lose it. On the finance side, it took me a minute to grasp certain concepts. And I think largely the way I, you know, you find your own ways of learning, with the way I was raised, kind of, there wasn't any option for me not to get it, I had to get it. So I found a way I forced myself to find a way to understand it in my own way. But that meant when communicating with other people, it was slightly different, you know, I've got the same answer, but I went completely different route to get there. And I'm fine with that.

Naomi: 6:47

I guess that's kind of a lot of people talk about the neuroplasticity of people who are new to new or divergent, because they always have to find different pathways to kind of understand the same information, but also to process it in a way so that they can be understood by other people.

Krystle: 7:00

Yeah. And it's funny, because, again, it's always in the hindsight, right. I've been diagnosed late in life way after, you know, when ideally, I should have been diagnosed and got the extra support. But looking back, I've always known that I've had to work extra extra hard. You know, maths has always been a love of mine, I think it was a nine when I was 14, math teacher was like, something Krystle and I was like, you think??? Literally, like that. I remember her name is Mrs. Scott, I'd love to find her. But she literally gave me this motivation or competence to pursue maths before that. I was just neck, whatever. But I've always known that I've had to work really hard. And no, it's always been tears. I used to have panic attacks a lot as a child as well, from, you know, struggling with a maths test, which is, you know, I laugh now. But comparing that to my brother, who kind of got masked really easily, just seeing that big difference. It never bothered me as such, but I knew I had to work really hard. And that that's such a big why.

Naomi: 8:05

Bless you. I mean, you know, your female role model, you know, shout out to Mrs Scott- Was she your math teacher? Was it?

Krystle: 8:14

Yeah, she was a maths teacher, really great message. And it's funny, I speak about this as well, when just talking about ADHD recently, and about the importance teachers play in a child's life. And I'm sure many of us have stories of teachers that weren't very nice. And for a lot of kids that really sticks with them, you have some analysts who have some really horrible stories about teachers, and that affects their ability to pursue a certain career or certain, you know, topic, and yeah, I had that one.

Naomi: 8:43

That's really good. I guess, was there any? I mean, would you say that there was any kind of almost mirroring in the sense that she was a woman that was interested in maths? And, you know, I don't know if that was part of it? Would you say?

Krystle: 8:54

I don't think so. I think when I was young, I guess what I say I was sheltered. My mother was very protective. You know, I did that. She said, You know, I was quite a good girl. And I, I don't think I was very exposed to, you know, for example, STEM being a thing at a young age, but I wasn't really familiar with that, or the fact that not many women or black women got into certain areas. I wasn't familiar with that. It's only when I got older that I looked back, I was like, Mom, do you realise what you did there? You pushed a young black woman into, you know, science, technology, etc. And I don't think she even realised. So it's only looking back that I'm aware that it's a good thing.

Naomi: 9:34

Oh, that's great, then I guess, you know, you're speaking about bless, you know, or the sort of anxiety experienced around all of that as well, and just sort of how you've kind of come through that. But also, that's, you know, I'm sure this will have an effect and things and I guess I wanted to sort of ask a little bit as well about some of the highlights, obviously, you spoke about this a Scott and things, but what were some of the highlights of this kind of journey that you've been on in STEM and in finance?

Krystle: 9:59

Yeah, I, you know, obviously, everyone's experience is very different. And I think I was very determined. I think once I put my head to something, I was like, I'm going for it, which I think is quite common in terms of resilience with people with ADHD, because, you know, their learning styles are so different and if they commit to something, they tend to really keep going, keep trying keep trying. I think that's definitely a positive and that's taught me you know, in later life and it continues to be reinforced that If you try hard if you keep pushing through, you will get there. And that's, I have this kind of, you can't question, I will achieve what I say I'll achieve. And I think that's really quite powerful. You know, compared to some people who don't have that belief, I can see the effects of that in terms of your ability to actually get started at something new. So that's definitely a strong highlight in terms of everything I tried to achieve, you know, I believe by I want to put my, you know, go for it, I will get it. Yeah, you can highlight?

Naomi: 11:00

Well, I mean, I guess we can see the sort of the end of the product of all your hard work and things of you know, where you are at now. And everything. I guess, like, I wanted to ask as well, what be sort of, what would you say would be some of the most sort of important things then for, say, young people, today, people in their 20s, 30s, to kind of get right, and that would set them up for careers in STEM for their financial futures? And maybe people who are sort of going through some of the struggles that you were going through, you know, neurodivergent people and things? Well, what would what would you say?

Krystle: 11:33

I think one of the thing that I, I really wish I had was more one part role models, but also just kind of connecting with others, just seeing the journeys that others have gone through or, or speaking to people who've done this stuff before, or doing it at the moment, you know, they don't have to be 10/20 years ahead of me, but you know, just a little bit ahead of me, just to understand what that looks like, I think having that would have made the world of difference. And I can see that there's some opportunities to be on people today where they can get that. So you know, reaching out to people on LinkedIn, or that can be scary, of course, but joining events online, and just listening to other people talk and try to join events that are completely outside of what you know, you know, what your normal is, of join different events, different spaces and hear about different people and you know, completely away from your, your social circle, really will inform you about opportunities. And as you kind of build your confidence, you know, maybe say hi in the chat, or pop your name or say who you are. And, you know, it starts to spiral from there and positive direction, I think that can be really life changing.

Naomi: 12:46

I love that. So I guess it's about from what you were saying it's about sort of pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, and really pushing yourself out there to meet different people and be exposed to different stories, different avenues.

Krystle: 12:57

Yeah, for sure. You know, you never know kind of changes that lie ahead of you know, just trying that that one thing, but so it's slightly to the left or slightly to the right. It can open up the door to so many opportunities, you never know who you're gonna speak to. I think just being open to that. And willing to, to keep an eye out for those opportunities, I think is a huge part to play!

Naomi: 13:23

Has that ever happened? Like, do you have any sort of I guess I'm just curious about kind of experiences like that was something sort of led to something and then they came along later?

Krystle: 13:33

Yeah, I mean, I've got a purpose in my mind to to share that. I've got two maybe one. That is exactly what we're talking about. One way I kind of created it myself, which is, so it was an ITV talking about Buy now pay later. I think it was this year, January. And that was off the back of me meeting a lady. I think it was at a property networking event, so totally unrelated to this space. And that was maybe five or so years ago.

Naomi: 14:01

Oh, wow. So yeah, a long time. Wow!

Krystle: 14:03

long time ago for

Naomi: 14:05

Deffo keep tabs on people then!

Krystle: 14:07

Yeah. And, you know, I think it was a property event, But I know it was definitely pre COVID Years and years ago, I don't actually remember meeting her. But then she just reached out to me on LinkedIn and talking about an opportunity, because she'd seen the way my career had gone and kind of what I was working now, which is, you know, behavioural finance and psychology of money and decision making. And she was like, you'd be great on my TV to come up by now pay later. It's, you know, timely, it's what we're talking about. And it's interesting there, because along that journey, she reached out to me and went back to whoever to say, look into Krystle, she's great. And they actually were like, not sure if we want her we might want somebody else with a different type of experience, more kind of neuroscience with yesI. And this is where I am. I made the effort to make the opportunity a reality. I had been in my mind to write articles for a long time and just start writing. So I did, I wrote an article during that time, talking about raising finance, just to show my expertise to show what I know. Because otherwise people don't know, right. And off the back of that they saw that article was like Yep, definitely. So it was one part thing. Yeah, one part, you know, great connections five years ago and another part actually I made the effort to really be seen heard. And I think I've got another story. So I can't remember it now. But I know that something similar happened again. When opportunity came about, you know, it was kind of on the ledge. And I was like, actually, let me do this to show. That's it. I think I posted a video of me talking at an event. And off the back of that they were like, Yes, let's go ahead. You know, it's a combination of being at the right place at the right time, but also putting an effort to kind of reinforce what you're about. I think.

Naomi: 15:55

I love that. So from from meeting somebody at this was at a property event, I think it was property. Yeah. And then I love that. So you kind of supplemented that with the was that the article that I saw of yours that sort of went a bit viral?

Krystle: 16:13

It was like an introduction to behavioural finance, and what it means for people's decision making and stuff. So talking about various biases and stuff it was, I'm not sure.

Naomi: 16:22

Yeah, I guess I'm just - for our listeners actually, could you sort of outline a little bit about behavioural finance as sort of the psychology of money? Because I'm sure a lot of people that's quite like a new term or maybe familiar concepts.

Krystle: 16:33

Yeah, of course. So behavioural finance is all about understanding the reasons for your financial decisions. So behavioural economics, which is what I studied, is going back, a step- just understanding the reasons for your decisions across the board. So the the insight there could be used to help people get more vaccinations or behave in a certain way or not litter. But I focused on finance, of course, that's where my passion lies. Obviously, I've studied accountancy, but now I'm more in personal finance, and supporting founders kind of gain the confidence and skills to build successful businesses. So it's, yeah, understanding, you know, things such as we're loss averse, and we don't like taking the risks, for example, and understanding the the impact of our environment. So how, and this one may be common for people who are in marketing or this is quite common, but the way things are presented to you totally influences how you know, what you do and what you choose, you know, for things about McDonald's and the sizes of their drinks, or, you know, the wording used describe something in your prime to have a certain number of influences and you know, things like that it's, we understand now, how that affects us psychologically. Yeah, in terms of our experience, emotionally, upbringing stuff, and how that affects our money story, and how we feel about money and whether we feel we can attain more money and whether we're impulse spenders and all that goes into it.

Naomi: 18:06

I guess I'm just curious, as a layperson, here's sort of, would you say then sort of the primary experiences with money, let's say, what kind of financial situation were born into, parental attitudes, does that have a really big effect? And then later on?

Krystle: 18:21

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's not a straight line, as in, you know, if you were raised in poverty, you'll definitely go on to be a hoarder or save save tip, there's, it's not necessarily directly connected in that way. But it does definitely influence you. So how you were raised kind of how your parents spoke about money, the whole feel around money, in your upbringing, and also later in life, you know, if you're the partner who treated money a certain way, or that also input, and also, there was a study looking at when people were born and how they feel about money, depending on the economic state. You know, for example, we know now interest rates are really high. And that is terrifying the younger generation, because I've never seen that before. Whereas the older generation have definitely seen interest rates higher than what it is now. And it's like, yeah, that's fine. They're used to that. But that totally influences how somebody feels about finance money. And, you know, should they invest, or should they buy property? It totally throws that, you know, the opposite direction. So yeah, so many things go into how we feel what we do.

Naomi: 19:27

I love that. I mean, I'm sure anyone's always up for a good generational chat about the moment with all the cost of living crisis and everything. It's definitely very topical. Or the I think, obviously, the housing crisis, while I'm sure was a big conversation within the the money realm.

Krystle: 19:45

Yes, yes. Yeah. I mean, and you know, buying investment property buy toilet has been an amazing thing. For a long time, and with interest rates been so high, and it just, it just shrinks up the economy and what people do. Yeah, new things will come.

Naomi: 20:02

Exactly and things. But I think that's so interesting. And I think it's sort of I guess, circling back to what we're talking about it I love that you kind of had this sort of transmitting, but then you kind of, you're talking about all the things that you did to supplement that and all of the things that you did that kind of led up to this fantastic opportunity and amazing achievement that you want ITV talking about, you know, financial services and all of those things. I mean, I love that that's kind of what got to see a little bit inside the kind of the story behind that, I think a lot of times, it can be quite sort of daunting to think well, how do you get that? How do you get that opportunity? How does one do it, but when we sort of see a little bit, a little bit into the sort of journey and lens behind it, it's really interesting.

Krystle: 20:44

Yeah, and I think it, it takes a minute, because I think, if we, if I rewind to before kind of I started my business and kind of, you know, start in January going self employed initially, when I was working for, you know, SMEs, I literally hid behind my computer screen on Excel as a difficult accountant, like I, I was not kind of out in the public eye and sharing my thoughts and my feelings or my, my learnings, that that wasn't me at all. But I think personally with, you know, in relation to what I do with my money, I really saw the importance of supporting people with their personal or business finance, you know, what you can do for generations to come and the economy, and there's so many positives that can come out of it. And once I saw that, that's what I cared about. And that's really what I want to lean into. I saw what I needed to do, which was actually I need to be out there in the public eye talking about this stuff, encouraging the conversation of money, which we know is a taboo subject. And that's what really kind of propelled me motivated me to get started. And then off the back of that, like, like we said, you know, her spotting that this is my area, and other opportunities that have come up, you know, bit radio, magazines and things like that. It's, I think it's a good cause. And that's my focus.

Naomi: 21:59

I love that. I love that it's sort of it's sort of you kind of rose to the occasion. Yeah, sense. I guess I wanted to touch on something you said actually, about money being a taboo subject, I guess what your kind of thoughts on that? Because I definitely, I guess from my perspective, I do feel like that's still relevant today. But obviously, much more expertise on that sort of a little bit around that really, yeah,

Krystle: 22:20

I mean, is to completely is still very taboo. For many people, I wouldn't be able to say, more or less, I guess, people are talking about it more with the internet podcasts like this, the conversation is being had more, and it's more accessible. But, you know, if we, if we look at what money is, money often is used to signal to our peers that we are part of it in group, for example, and a lot of us tend to present as if we are a certain way to be socially accepted. And for many, actually, the reality of their financial situation is not great. But we don't want to disclose that, especially if there's going to be a risk of, you know, we're social beings. And there are many other reasons as well, we know, we're not taught about finance, there's not a set, you know, financial education, it's not compulsory within schools just yet. And obviously, if your parents aren't equipped with the skills to teach you about finance, obviously not going to get it home. So there's so many spaces for us to not have the skills needed. And then also, which I think people often forget to include is, financial services and financial products are forever changing. Even finance experts themselves have to, you know, okay, this is new, what's this? Let's go and learn. Let's, let's figure out what's happening here. So for the, like you said, the general lay man, it's, it's, they're not finance experts, and then things are changing as well. So it's a lot to catch up with. And, you know, really simple example is back in the day, we didn't have to worry about pensions that was sort of our employer. But now with the range of pensions you can get, and you know, you can make the decision, it's, but there isn't a set way to learn about pensions, you have to you know, so I think all of that kind of combined is what makes the topic of Money and Finance be so uncomfortable. You know, we don't disclose our salaries at work. It's not a standard, and there's so many areas for it to be actually it's just keep this a secret, which from my experience, might concede, that can be quite damaging if somebody is struggling, especially if it then spills over into, you know, affecting their mental health, and they're not seeking the help because of the fear of talking about it.

Naomi: 24:36

Yeah, actually, that's a very good point that you brought up. You know, it's something that needs to be addressed about this sort of the relationship with money, finance and mental health. And you were just speaking just now about all the areas where the kind of conversation about money is, is missing, I guess, is that fair to say about the school within workplaces within even within peer to peer relationships and romantic relationships as well and within families? And it's, I guess it's sort of a bit of an area that many people don't have anybody nearby that they know that isn't explored. It knows very much about it.

Krystle: 25:15

Yeah, for sure. On the mental side, we know that it's direct correlation. A lot of stress and worries are a result of money worries, you know, specifically and it also affects how somebody It turns up at work, you know, whether they're engaged, whether they're productive, whether they're actually present mentally at work, you know, some financial woes, you know, we're talking about money is we're in a society, we're moving money to get by pay for our rent, pay for electricity, buy food for our family, you know, it's a, it's an important subject area. So if you're having troubles, there's, of course going to affect, you know, the rest of, you know, other areas of your life. And, yeah, it's a hard conversation in terms of who is responsible for that education? You know, one part is the government it banks, is it your employer. And that, you know, personally until we've got something set in place, you know, whether it's through schooling, I think everybody should play a part, everybody can do their part, a part to kind of give people the skills to be better at their finances.

Naomi: 26:20

I guess, from what you're saying, sounds like it's calling for a more holistic approach to education about money, sort of from all these different sources.

Krystle: 26:28

Yeah. And it's funny, I had this conversation with somebody on LinkedIn the other day, I think, on the back of one of my posts, and I want my post was about that she's kind of suggested that it's down to the parents, and I've made the case well, actually, if we're in a state right now, where no one's actually been given solid foundational skills, then putting the responsibility on the parent right now, it's not quite right, because they also haven't got the skills, you know, it might have to be a longer road journey. You know, for the next generation, we've been given that, you know, did you see what I mean? Which is why I think right now, it's a holistic approach until we get something set in stone that future generations have that skill. And so that's basis.

Naomi: 27:09

I guess, just sort of drawing information from different sources is always valuable, anyway. Yeah. Saying that, I guess, you were saying about the onus being on the parents is, I guess, sort of, yeah, if people have already limited capacity, or their own biases and things and there's not, you know, there's not sort of, if there was a curriculum, perhaps or sort of set information to learn about this, I guess. I'm curious, what, what would you say then would be the sort of advice you could give people to get to get them started to that sort of, let's say, somebody, maybe in their 20s, or even 30s, whichever, to get started to understand more about money, or more about finances, or sort of taking more control, and agency of their financial situation?

Krystle: 27:51

Yeh I think agency and it's a really important word, it's popped up quite a lot. And I think that's really important. And I think, you know, on the lowest level, start talking about it. And that can be really difficult, you know, talking to your peers or talking to family, I know in some cultures, talking to families, you don't talk about money, that's not the thing to do. And if that's kind of like the second stage, when the birthday, you just start reading, you know, on your own, just read the odd simple article. Obviously, we know that social media has a lot, you know, in terms of finance tips, but get reading, get, listen to podcasts, just get, you know, get familiar with some terminology. And then, then have a conversation. And I think you don't have to speak to an expert to kind of make improvement in your finances. Often, we speak to a friend who was like, oh, did you know about this, this great, you know, product or service? Does this for you? And it's like, oh, no, I didn't. And you don't have to be an expert to be given that insight. But those small tips can make a huge difference. Often when I'm talking about finance, or teaching people things, you know, the simplest thing such as a 0%, balance transfer credit card, which is really quite a simple concept. But so many people are not aware of it. But something like that can save so much in terms of interest, you know, and really help transform someone's finances in quite a big way. But by the simplest change, and that, again, doesn't require a finance expert, to, you know, to understand. So I think it's just start talking, start reading. And I did a LinkedIn live the other day, where I'm talking about ADHD in finance, and one lady who has ADHD and really, totally hid away from her finances, spoke to her bank. And you know, she found somebody nice there, just to explain something quite simply, that could be a good start, too.

Naomi: 29:44

I love that. So just sort of kind of starting with your already comfort zone, and just using the sort of resources that are already there. I love that and bless that lady just asking her. I love that. So that to say that there are helpers a bank that will help you. And so could you just explain about the thing you just mentioned about the 0% credit card as well, just for our listeners as well, please?

Krystle: 30:05

Yeah, sure. Yeah, of course with your bank there, you know, I think what was I think she needed an explanation as to what I said was for example, you know, just sent home. Yeah, accounts But she, her experience with finance. She'd been in a relationship before for a long time and she left everything to her partner. And I think before that when she was renting, sharing a home with people she left over Why not stop to her friends so she'd never responsible? Yeah, which is common for so many of us. Yeah, very common. And she didn't realise until recently, actually, that she has ADHD, and that maybe plays a part in, you know, the way she handles finance. But now she's taking those steps. And you know, she's feeling much more confident about learning on these terms of balance transfer. So basically, we you may have debts, whether they are cash, you know, a loan or credit card. Now, if you have a credit card which bear interest, so you're being charged interest every single month, you're obviously paying a fee to have this money. There are something called a 0% balance transfer, where you transfer the debt from that interest bearing credit card to the non interest bearing credit card 0%, you do have to pay a slight fee to do the transfer, but it's usually nothing in comparison to the interest you would have been paid before. And usually that new credit card, you know, you can have them for, I think three to five years, but I haven't checked recently. So the terms, but you're then able to spread that debt over a longer period to pay off. So you can pay off less money likely every month, and you're not paying interest. So it's a win win situation every month, immediately, your expenses are much lower. It's just a really great option for people who've got debts and are paying interest. Of course, you start first by checking your credit and doing an eligibility check to make sure that you've been approved, but it can be definitely a great option.

Naomi: 32:21

Thank you again for explaining that. Sorry. You know, I didn't know about that, either. So that's that's great. And things. And yeah, I guess I guess my question would be next would be about sort of, you mentioned about this, this person and how that, you know, sort of their their life story unfolded and things and they sort of discovered the head HD afterwards. How would you say that being neurodivergent might alter the story with finances a little differently? I guess I'm quite curious about that, actually.

Krystle: 32:47

Yeah, I think so. There are so many different types of neurodivergent. Right. With something like ADHD, you've got the hyperactivity, for example, or the impulse spending, or I was speaking to somebody the other day who has autism, and we spoke about shutdowns, which means in terms of your finances, you're likely to neglect your finances. So if you had bills to pay or things to do, because you're going through a shutdown, you don't do any of that stuff. And if you haven't got systems in place, then your finances are likely to suffer. On the impulse side, and I don't know if you've come across the Monzo research into ADHD, but that was really insightful. But they looked at they they're basically questioning people with ADHD and try to understand, you know, what challenges do you face. And, of course, the findings came out along the lines of, they tend to have more debt, and tend to miss payments, which obviously affects your credit, which then has a snowball effect, because then when you go to get more credit, because your credit profile is not as attractive, you're charged high interest there, it can be quite a bit of a snowball. So those are kind of common challenges. And I think when I speak with people who have those kinds of challenges, I think the first step is to kind of be very aware of yourself. That's the first step to understand. Okay, what is it you're doing wherever the shortcomings, where were you struggling? Because then you can put things in place to help counteract that. So like I said, at the shutdown, for example, automations. For me, it's like number one, you know, have things set up. So it just happens without your human involvement. Technology wonderfully has evolved that way that you can do that with someone, you know, everything. And then you know, yeah, as one example.

Naomi: 34:33

Like that. So you just never see the money. Just in and out. Never, yeah, never touch that. Yeah, I like that. I think and I guess that that's really interesting about the study that you mentioned, as well. I guess, obviously, it also is very individual as well, because it's all, you know, everyone experiences being neurodivergent very differently as well, and things all affected by like, culture, and family culture as well. And things but I think that's really interesting about the sort of challenges that could be because I think that's one of the conversations, I feel that when people speak about finance, I think they kind of speak about as if everyone's in the same boat. And if everyone has the same starting position, I don't know if that's just been my experience on social media and things but I feel like it's an I think that what you were saying about being very aware about your own challenges and your own situation and your own specific needs. I would like that. Yeah,

Krystle: 35:28

I think it's really key because like you're saying that, depending on who you're speaking to, or who you're listening to, you might assume that oh, this person's got their finances here or you know, they're at this level, and it can make you feel really excluded, for example, that you're not even there yet. And I you know, my approach to finance education is it has to be tailored to you and where you are, otherwise it's not going to land If you're gonna feel quite disconnected and not be in the right frame of mind to go about making those changes or be open to learning. So yeah, whenever I kind of work with somebody, especially when one is okay, where are you right now? Where are you succeeding? Where are you not achieving the goals that you want to achieve? Or, you know, have you looked at what's realistic in terms of what you're doing right now? And really understanding the ins and outs of that? And then identify, Okay, where do I need extra support, and it is so different for everybody. Because, you know, you've been down to two ADHD people that don't have the same symptoms, they don't behave in the same way. Or someone with dyslexia that, you know, it's completely different. I think that's, that's the really the key part, just understanding you. And there's nothing wrong with you. It's just understanding your differences, what makes you amazing. And then just putting systems and making things work for you.

Naomi: 36:43

I love that. I mean, I think that's just fantastic advice about sort of understanding yourself. And like you said, it's all very individual. I mean, for me, for example, I have dyslexia. But I've never really had a problem with reading. I think that's one of the things that if I tell people usually they're like, Oh, well, do you need help reading, but I've already had a problem with reading. Lots people would not be surprised to hear that it's more probably about listening. So. But, yeah, I've never really, I've always been a fairly average reader, just, you know, average to maybe a little bit faster. So you know, I think there's so much kind of, you know, I guess this is a sort of thing, but you know, but how that all impacts with the other parts as well, because also have dyspraxia as well and things, things. So this kind of comes together. But I think that I like the idea that you were saying that it's about an individual approach, and kind of really taking stock about where you are at the moment as well. And things and the goals, I guess I wanted to ask a little bit, can you tell us a bit more about your, your company, you know, Mind over Money, and all that and things and kind of how I know obviously spoken a lot about certain things, but I guess I'm just a bit more into about that.

Krystle: 37:49

Yeah, I mean, I mean, it started actually, I think I mentioned when I was it, so I started supporting people their personal finances a long time ago, I think I still, maybe even at uni, think in Yeah, because I noticed people around me were struggling financially, and there wasn't anything nearby about how to get support, you know. And then I started to put their business finance and as I started working in finance, and that's always been a thing I've done for many years. And then it got to the point where I was like, Okay, I think I'm done with the accountancy stuff. Now, you know, working in having a compliance department, I thought, let's, let's dive into this properly. So now, that's kind of the main area of focus that supporting initially organisations, and providing financial well being to their staff. Because we know that, like I said earlier, your personal finances are not sorted, you're, you're not really present, you can really struggle. And I think, especially right now, with cost of living crisis, for sure, that's a really big thing. And I'm getting lots of people reaching out for that support, you know, they don't know how to support their employees. And that is one way you definitely can, you know, bring all the information together and saying, Here, try this, this, this this. Otherwise, you're often left to kind of scour the internet and look, you know, who's trusted, you know, who's given the best, it can be quite hard. And if you're in a stressful state, it makes it even more difficult. And kind of pending, is supporting with managers as well with the internal business finances. So when I was working for organisations, I was often called upon to provide training to staff to understand the business finance, because that affects kind of the decisions they make and the conversations they have with clients. And I guess that looks quite nice as well, no of divergence. And, you know, people struggling and my approach to finance is very different in terms of I start with the individual instead of just going diving in, hey, this is what profit and loss is, it's okay, where are you? How do you feel about this? Where do you think your strong points are? And really gently easing them into that process? So it can be enjoyable?

Naomi: 40:02

I love that you just start with Okay, where are you at the moment? Let's go from there. I think I think myself included a lot of people, I'd be very overwhelmed if they were just like, right, so there is future gain and all of that and things and yes, I'm completely confused. I guess I'm I'm sort of curious as well. But you saying about the a lot of people reaching out to you the moment the cost of living crisis, obviously, dare I bring it up? And things but I guess, what's the kind of what are the main kind of concerns that people are coming to you with at the moment and sort of not all of that,

Krystle: 40:34

I mean, I think it's just how to juggle and kind of really? what the best thing is to do, you know, especially around such as like debt or saving and what can I do at this time when things are so expensive and kind of rewinding right back, a lot of people don't actually have a budget, they haven't actually taken time to understand what the ins and outs are. So when you're kind of met with a costume crisis, where things are so much more expensive, and there's a lot of negative talk in the media around this time, not gonna say it's a good time, I'm not saying that, but there's a lot of negative talk. And the way we are rigged as humans, is we feel that negativity so much more. So that compounded with the fact that your actual your money in your pocket and what you can afford day to day has been impacted, it can be quite a scary time. And that, that heightened emotional state then impacts what we do with our finances. So it becomes a bit of a snowball effect. So a lot of kind of the conversation around as well as around kind of suppressing that panic, you know, okay, let's dismiss the uncertainty, let's not worry about that. Let's focus on what we can control. Let's get very clear about where we are, and see what we can do and not be so frightened in a negative, emotional way. Which is yeah, not conversation has been haven't been about that as well.

Naomi: 41:55

I guess a lot of it is sort of, say, processing emotional states, which are linked to, in a way, it almost sounds like a bit of a form of therapy. I don't know if that's some?

Krystle: 42:07

Yeah, for sure. It is, it's actually something I've been thinking about actually kind of going down that route. I just had a great conversation with somebody today, who is a financial therapist, and she specialises in ADHD, which is absolutely wonderful. But But yeah, for sure, like what we spoke about earlier, you know, in terms of our emotions, and historically, and you know, what we grew up with, and how we were raised, it totally plays a part. I was on BBC radio the other day, and we had, I think it was three or four guests talk about the change that had to make their finances. And it was such a nice range of people. You know, some, of course, were a little bit more, no bit negative about it, but you had the extreme as well, we had, she was a pensioner and she was quite optimistic, she was like, well, it's fine, just go roll my sleeves up, and, you know, do what I got to do. And it it from what you can see it totally goes back to the emotional side and where they are mentally, which then has an effect on the actual finances.

Naomi: 43:06

So it's all linked, it's kind of the sort of intermarriage of the, the pre existing values and beliefs about money. And that's kind of builds resilience, or sets of precedents for the resilience of the individual. And then the actual situation, all of those kind of meshed together, yeah, to kind of have have a sort of a swing kind of effect on each other sort of, one way and one other way. And all of those things.

Krystle: 43:32

Exactly. And that goes back to why it's not - you can't blanket approach finance education, you have to start with the individual where they are and, and that also gives them kind of confidence and empowerment that okay, this is where I am, this is the route I can go down and, and as well, I realised that the way I start kind of my education or or support with somebody, giving them insight into all the factors that may have got them to where they are, that I find really released as an individual, because then I don't even like saying this, but then that releases them of the thought of they're just stupid and a lost cause that's often the narrative. And which, you know, makes me so angry, but fine, some people are there, but when I kind of help them see that this may have had an effect as to why you're here or this experience or and then it kind of shows them a route to kind of go through that and let go of those limiting beliefs or, you know, biases they hold then they can go about, you know, improving their finances.

Naomi: 44:38

I guess it's a bit of a sort of a breakdown of kind of pre-existing views about oneself and then kind of adding a little bit of self belief in there. Yeah,

Krystle: 44:47

for sure. For sure. One area that I talk about a lot is financial Steve and financial confidence and that's, you know, believing that you are capable of getting your finances to a good state and that that's before even looking at numbers that's just you believing and understanding that you being here is not a permanent state it can change and then the changes is huge just transformation.

Naomi: 45:14

I love that you're the finance fairy godmother. You shall go to the finance you shall go to the bank. I don't know think about that, like finance vote, you know, maybe could trademark that. Maybe things. Okay. Yeah, I guess I just wanted to ask you to before we come to the end is what kind of advice would you give to others who are sort of wanting to start this career in finance? Yeah, or maybe start their own business you know, thanks for We've heard a lot about your journey. And I think it's absolutely amazing and things. So yeah, what kind of advice would you give to people?

Krystle: 45:57

Yeah, I think this will kind of link back to the advice we spoke about earlier. And that's definitely trying to connect with people. Try to connect people who on some level as you, they also may have different insights, try to reach out to people who are a little bit further down the road than you. And just kind of go to different events and hang around and hear conversations and get insight into, you know, opportunities that exist or how things can be done. And, you know, ultimately just get started. We're gonna make mistakes. I still make mistakes today. But yeah, yeah, for sure. But just dive in. Yeah.

Naomi: 46:35

What would you say? I guess for maybe, I guess, as well, for people that maybe a little tentative or nervous about being in a space, maybe they might be the only one like, potentially there any person of colour, or any sort of neurodivergent person or any queer person, for example, what would you say kind of around that?

Krystle: 46:53

Yeah, good question. And I think the trick there is to find a community that you do connect with. So if that means if your employer, yeah, if you're working somewhere, and you are the only black person, which commonly was the case for me, which I didn't have at the time, it's, you know, using other spaces, such as meetup or check out events on Eventbrite or LinkedIn, there are lots of groups that you can join to be part of the community where you feel belonging. And then also you can have discussions and share experiences and learn about how to deal with certain things, if you find them a challenge. And they might give you some guidance as to if you need to read conversations with your boss, for example, or, you know, give you that support. That's one thing I wish I had, but I didn't. But obviously now much older I do. I think that's that's a large part. So you feel connected or not left out?

Naomi: 47:44

I guess it can be very isolating as well. I think and I think it's, you know, it's obviously very important that you are carrying this mantle for the next generation things. But it's still obviously, in some externalise can be hard to visualise, that when using, you said that you didn't have that. And that kind of circle and things and that kind of belonging in the in, in that sense when getting started with these things, because sometimes it can be so nerve racking and you think, Oh, I don't know if I'm gonna go into this, because, you know, there's not anyone else that is like me.

Krystle: 48:17

Yeah, and I think, you know, even me saying I didn't have it, then I didn't know I even wanted or needed it. I wasn't aware. I just knew that. Sure, I had some challenges at work. And this was difficult and, okay, I just gotta get on. But I think, even if you don't know, kind of what your challenge may be, or you know, that you feel some kind of discomfort or something, or even if you just you don't feel that way, and you're just getting on, and you think that's how it should be. Definitely reach out and have a connection to others. You know, like I said, LinkedIn groups or meetup groups or just connect with people. I think that's the key.

Naomi: 48:56

Connection. That's gonna save. Yeah, human connection. I love that. Yeah. So I think we're coming to the end of our podcast. Thank you so much for being on our podcast is absolute pleasure to speak with all this. And I think it's, I mean, as you said, the best thing is to get started talking about these things. So yeah. Where can people find you? What kind of links can they go to to learn a bit more about you and learn more, more about things you spoke about today? Sure.

Krystle: 49:24

And thank you for having me. It's been lovely. I am mainly on LinkedIn. So just my name, Crystal McGilvery. I do have a website. kind of almost like a CV at the moment. So that you can find me on there. I am on Instagram, you know, I am on those things. But LinkedIn is, but it's the main place that you'll find me and my company.

Naomi: 49:45

I do actually read out your Instagram with your little tips and follow that thing. Yeah, so thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for taking time out. And thank you, to our listeners for listening this week, this week, this month. Thank you and we'll speak to you in the next episode.

Diversifying Group: 50:08

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support this podcast, please share it with others and leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Keep up to date with what we do at diversifying.com or follow us on social media at diversifying group. See you next time.